Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#121

Post by estel » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:38 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #106

spartango wrote: post #81

Can we talk about this more clearly? This isn't strictly "evil DRM" as people are highlighting. Unlike some other games, it's not like SimCity is just phoning home to figure out if it is licensed or not, and preventing unlicensed copies. SimCity depends on EA/Maxis' server infrastructure for a great deal of storage and computation related to the macro-scale components of each game. Not only is city state synced there…

I don't think you're adding clarity here. People are upset about the lack of a single player offline mode, which absolutely is about preventing unlicensed copies. There is no technical reason for its absence. The cloud based stuff sounds great, and if it were an optional extra that was unavailable at launch due to technical difficulties, I doubt you'd see a hundredth as much bad PR.

Isn't:

> We can argue about whether these things should be computed and stored in the cloud, but I think there is a plausible, if imperfect, argument for doing so

Conceivably true? We could be in a world with no DRM, but there would still be a market trend moving games towards a more social, connected and integrated experience; and some developers will be looking at ways to fundamentally build their new games in a way that takes advantage of this. Why not SimCity? The Sims 3 already indicated where the Sims franchise might be heading with regards to improved connectivity with friends, I don't think it's an entirely unreasonable leap to get to where SimCity is now.

Which isn't to say that DRM wouldn't have been a business consideration at an executive level; but there's definitely an argument that SimCity's design choices, even if flawed, can be justified without considering DRM.

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#122

Post by jader201 » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:39 PM UTC

anon1385 wrote: post #110

jader201 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a web site, it's a game. It is marketed and sold as a game. It isn't even being marketed/sold as an MMO. For the most part, people think this is a single player experience with some multiplayer interactions. I haven't seen the retail packaging, but does it even state an internet connection is required? And if so, is it prominent? EDIT: According to the shot on Amazon[1], it does at least state that a "per…

So your argument is really that DRM is ok as long as the user knows about it in advance?

No, I didn't say that at all.

I simply said comparing this to a web app is not apples-to-apples.

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#123

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:39 PM UTC

anon1385 wrote: post #110

jader201 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a web site, it's a game. It is marketed and sold as a game. It isn't even being marketed/sold as an MMO. For the most part, people think this is a single player experience with some multiplayer interactions. I haven't seen the retail packaging, but does it even state an internet connection is required? And if so, is it prominent? EDIT: According to the shot on Amazon[1], it does at least state that a "per…

So your argument is really that DRM is ok as long as the user knows about it in advance?

I should at least be able to make an informed choice in the matter.

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#124

Post by prezjordan » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #48

cryptoz wrote: post #18

This could be a very big moment. EA is selling a completely broken product - and I mean that from the perspective of the average consumer, not the nerd who thinks all DRM is broken - and they're doing it for absolutely no reason . If this lasts long enough and gets enough press, it could actually be a turning point against DRM like this. That would be so wonderful.

The thinking goes - without DRM, some large number, X % of the games are just copied instead of purchased. With DRM, close to 0% of the the games are copied, but some large number Y % of the games are no longer purchased because people either are (A) Philisophically opposed to DRM, (B) Want to be able to play the game offline, or now, (C) Can't play the game because the DRM breaks it. The balancing act, here, is how…

Seems like Valve is spot-on with that X%, and maybe even lowers it a little by offering such a great service and caring about their customers. That sounded fanboy-ish, but it's the truth.

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#125

Post by estel » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

pale_rider wrote: post #72

I don't understand why people buy games from EA? I mean, seriously, why buy it? They have been pulling this crap for years and each new release just gets progressively worse. About a year ago I decided if it's not on Steam I'm not buying it. It really sucks to miss out on some of the games, but I refuse to support such an asshole of a company.

As a consumer: If my £40 game gives me £40 of entertainment, I will buy it.

This held for Mass Effect 3 and Battlefield 3. And considering the reviews it has been receiving, I'm confident this will be true for SimCity once the early server issues have been ironed out.

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#126

Post by Irregardless » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #42

I feel bad for the game devs who got to see their hard work turn into something they don't intend. I suppose this is a great advertising technique for small firms, startups, indie shops, etc. "Don't want this[ http://amazon-pulls-sim-city ] to happen? Work for our small team. We won't destroy your work." I know it's standard to say "you get a part in the decisionmaking process!" That's part of it. But a lot of people…

EA has a reputation for being more akin to a sweatshop than a place where passionate people work on things they love, and it's been that way for many years now.

I do feel bad for anyone who works in that type of environment, but I don't think many (if any) of their employees are under the impression that their work will be lauded by adoring fans. Gamers resent everything that EA stands for -- especially their constant profiteering and manipulation -- and begrudgingly buy their games because they're one of the few companies with the budget to create AAA titles.

Takeover by EA is usually considered a death knell for game studios...

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#127

Post by rhizome » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #42

I feel bad for the game devs who got to see their hard work turn into something they don't intend. I suppose this is a great advertising technique for small firms, startups, indie shops, etc. "Don't want this[ http://amazon-pulls-sim-city ] to happen? Work for our small team. We won't destroy your work." I know it's standard to say "you get a part in the decisionmaking process!" That's part of it. But a lot of people…

I feel bad for the game devs who got to see their hard work turn into something they don't intend.

"Spore" was 5 years ago, FWIW.

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#128

Post by NoPiece » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

goatforce5 wrote: post #87

NoPiece wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although it is more likely in this case that the EA executives mandated online only to the developers.

No doubt. Doesn't mean you have to implement it badly though.

Agreed! But having worked at a company similar to EA, I know the developer may have wanted to implement certain things a certain way, but may not have been able to due to corporate mandates. For example, they may have wanted to deploy using AWS, but their CTO demanded they use the in-house infrastructure he has been working on. Obviously just speculation, but things like this happen all the time at large companies where internal factions put their own agendas ahead of the product and users. I would just hold off blaming Maxis or the development team until more is known.

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#129

Post by OWaz » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

goatforce5 wrote: post #87

NoPiece wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although it is more likely in this case that the EA executives mandated online only to the developers.

No doubt. Doesn't mean you have to implement it badly though.

What I'm failing to understand is how a company the size of EA could launch a game with strict online requirements and fail to deliver online capabilities.

Re: Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

#130

Post by SquareWheel » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #42

I feel bad for the game devs who got to see their hard work turn into something they don't intend. I suppose this is a great advertising technique for small firms, startups, indie shops, etc. "Don't want this[ http://amazon-pulls-sim-city ] to happen? Work for our small team. We won't destroy your work." I know it's standard to say "you get a part in the decisionmaking process!" That's part of it. But a lot of people…

Maxis has totally ignored the issue. Look at their Reddit AMA when nearly every question was regarding this, and they didn't even acknowledge it.

Perhaps they were under legal obligation or pressure from EA, but I find it hard to feel sympathy.