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Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

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Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#121

Post by tensor »

VexXtreme wrote: post #89
sc0rb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

I work with Java every day. Java and Spring pay my bills at the moment but that doesn't lessen my contempt for the platform. Overly amateurish nature of the community/ecosystem is a huge issue when you are building enterprise level applications (but have no choice really, because it is your company's technology of choice - usually because they are too cheap to pay for decent dev tools). The whole community is full of…

I also work the the JVM (but not Java) everyday. The JVM and it's libraries are arguably the strongest part of the Java ecosystem. You really need to experience other languages and their library ecosystems before you make grandiose comments like these.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#122

Post by Surio »

michaelt wrote: post #18
Surio wrote: post #5

[Somewhat relevant, somewhat off-topic] Commission collections and ethics aside, I actually cannot understand the venom towards Ask (its search results). I believe in keeping web searches open with multiple choices made available to users, so I actively support all viable alternatives (meaning I use Ask, Blekko, ddg, lycos, yahoo (bing) among others instead of Google for regular everyday searches). Ask search results…

I'd never used Ask, so after reading your post I compares a search for "cuda device to host memory copy" [1] and [2] On google I saw no ads, and the links on the first page of results usually contain the search term. On Ask there are ads, and they look very much like search results - there's no coloured background to identify them as such - and the search results contain irrelevant links to other Ask properties like…

Hi,

Good show. I checked your links on Maxthon [my IE without the IE baggage] and on Firefox (default browser with ABP add-on) for comparison.

1. On FF I have ABP installed, but there were no ads on Maxthon either for Ask. Is it due to "search bubble" or something else? Not sure. However, I too use uk.ask.com for my searches like you, so the 'bubble' should be the same for me as well. Hmmmm.

2. I got those two false positives also. But the rest of the search results were similar between both search engines (SO, rice.edu, stanford.edu, sourceforge, NVIDIA). I'll admit that I would have simply filtered those two anomalies visually and not given it a second thought. But wouldn't you say, search-for-search, the landing pages were pretty similar in the results returned (barring those two stupidities)?

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#123

Post by sc0rb »

dasil003 wrote: post #113
sc0rb wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mono isn't proven anywhere near as much as the JVM. I don't know why this is being downvoted. It's true that the JVM is one of the things in the Java ecosystem that is looked upon as a massive success.

Probably because you decry someone for living in a bubble but then proceed to inflate your own. Yeah, the JVM is great, but not everything that fails to live up to its incredible success is "unproven".

That may be the case but Mono still isn't proven as much as the JVM is.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#124

Post by [deleted] »

michaelt wrote: post #18
Surio wrote: post #5

[Somewhat relevant, somewhat off-topic] Commission collections and ethics aside, I actually cannot understand the venom towards Ask (its search results). I believe in keeping web searches open with multiple choices made available to users, so I actively support all viable alternatives (meaning I use Ask, Blekko, ddg, lycos, yahoo (bing) among others instead of Google for regular everyday searches). Ask search results…

I'd never used Ask, so after reading your post I compares a search for "cuda device to host memory copy" [1] and [2] On google I saw no ads, and the links on the first page of results usually contain the search term. On Ask there are ads, and they look very much like search results - there's no coloured background to identify them as such - and the search results contain irrelevant links to other Ask properties like…

[deleted]

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#125

Post by jtheory »

VexXtreme wrote: post #89
sc0rb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

I work with Java every day. Java and Spring pay my bills at the moment but that doesn't lessen my contempt for the platform. Overly amateurish nature of the community/ecosystem is a huge issue when you are building enterprise level applications (but have no choice really, because it is your company's technology of choice - usually because they are too cheap to pay for decent dev tools). The whole community is full of…

> Don't even get me started on the recent security debacle.

I'm kinda curious to get you started on the security debacle, actually.

Do you ship Java software that runs client-side? Spring is usually for server-side; if you're just on the server side, though, how has the security debacle affected you?

I generally agree about the ecosystem (yup, just gotta avoid most of it) and the core language (though the clunkyness is somewhat mitigated by IDE facilities for auto-generating code).

But I mostly spend my time on either client-side JavaScript or server-side Java, and it's the JavaScript side that drives me crazy -- in the JVM, things just work. I've hit runtime bugs maybe twice in 14 years working with Java on the server side, and one of those was on the AS/400 (!), and unless I'm doing something stupid, it's fast.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#126

Post by [deleted] »

michaelt wrote: post #18
Surio wrote: post #5

[Somewhat relevant, somewhat off-topic] Commission collections and ethics aside, I actually cannot understand the venom towards Ask (its search results). I believe in keeping web searches open with multiple choices made available to users, so I actively support all viable alternatives (meaning I use Ask, Blekko, ddg, lycos, yahoo (bing) among others instead of Google for regular everyday searches). Ask search results…

I'd never used Ask, so after reading your post I compares a search for "cuda device to host memory copy" [1] and [2] On google I saw no ads, and the links on the first page of results usually contain the search term. On Ask there are ads, and they look very much like search results - there's no coloured background to identify them as such - and the search results contain irrelevant links to other Ask properties like…

[deleted]

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#127

Post by jtheory »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #47
tobiasu wrote: post #15

On the contrary, please continue. Improve it by adding BonziBuddy and friends. Please please please ruin your already non-existent reputation, Oracle. Help ordinary people who have no idea what Oracle is, connect your name with spam and spyware (and security problems, ofc).

Hear, hear. Oracle has the right to bundle whatever crap-ware they want. If that sullies their reputation or draws out alternatives, that's a good thing.

Can we just wait until real alternatives exist before letting client-side Java completely self-destruct?

My problem is that as of now, they don't.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#128

Post by eli »

monochromatic wrote: post #53
eli wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'd take that deal.

The devil you know is... worse than the devil you don't?

Not really.

I trust both companies well enough to install software downloaded from their servers. But I don't want a pointless installer that tries to trick me into crapware. So Ninite is the clear winner there.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#129

Post by JanneVee »

freehunter wrote: post #50
brudgers wrote: post #46

This petition is complaining about the neighbor on your left letting his dog crap in your yard, when the neighbor on the right is running a meth lab. We are carrying around phones filled with spyware to track what we listen to, watch and read an where we do it. How hard is it to discern even our sleep habits? We put them on the charger beside the bed at night and tune in to Pandora. If our phones can't tell if we're…

And what do you propose Microsoft or Apple would do with the knowledge that I'm an alcoholic who is cheating on my wife? Why would they care? They're in business to make money, and there's not much money in extortion, not for long. If my phone called my wife automatically to tell her where I was and what I was doing, it wouldn't be long before no one bought that phone and Apple went out of business from the privacy l…

> Why do they spy?

You're thinking of this type of consequences: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230445860457748...

The problem is this type of consequences: http://www.newcreditrules.com/newcreditrulescom/2009/01/bewa...

Secret formulas deciding our credit limits and insurance premiums because spying gives them information is the problem. Not the information that we might pay more for a hotel room.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#130

Post by bunderbunder »

sc0rb wrote: post #123
dasil003 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because you decry someone for living in a bubble but then proceed to inflate your own. Yeah, the JVM is great, but not everything that fails to live up to its incredible success is "unproven".

That may be the case but Mono still isn't proven as much as the JVM is.

Absolutely true that the JVM gets more use. But it's also true that the present situation is never set in stone. Remember how popular it was to malign Java back in the late 90s?

And it's also true that the CLR really is technically superior to the JVM on a whole slew of points. It has runtime-level support for generics (meaning C# lets you do all sorts of nice things with them that Java doesn't support). It has user-defined value types. It supports coroutines (i.e., 'yield'). It supports anonymous functions and closures. For those who just can't leave pointers alone, it even has unsafe blocks. And so on.

So while it's definitely not "proven" in a sense that will impress your average PHB, in terms of technical merit I don't think there's really any comparison. Mono wins hands-down.

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