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What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

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Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#121

Post by lessnonymous »

gurvinder wrote: post #103
lessnonymous wrote: post #76

As a hiring manager, the thing I find most interesting on posts like this (ignoring that the analogy is TERRIBLE) are the comments of people used to being on the other side of the desk. I don't think we (as interviewers) do a good job of explaining why we ask the questions we ask. And I don't think we do a good job of communicating what our job is. Our job is to stop you getting hired. If we get 100 people applying f…

So this means you hire people for specific tasks, and when new task comes, you fire them and go looking for new people for the next specific task. seems like a very good strategy...

Please read my other replies on this thread concerning this.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#122

Post by amalcon »

koide wrote: post #96
amalcon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, now you've got me thinking about how one might technically satisfy that requirement. None of the possibilities I've come up with are good ideas.

You will very likely need real time guarantees the JVM does not provide. (The "off the shelf" bit's a hint)

Absolutely correct. I was thinking of things along the lines of "use JDK 1.2, which still lets you turn off the garbage collector, and then spend 100% of your time after startup in a JNI module." That's the least scary version.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#123

Post by lessnonymous »

wrecks1 wrote: post #104
lessnonymous wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're hiring 100 people, you still only get the same number of applicants. If you get 100 applicants, you're not going to fill your 100 positions. (Note the "at least 99" in my post) If I'm desperate to hire 100 people and I can't get 100 qualified applicants, that's when I start looking to people who could be the right people in very quick order. I've done that and ended up with some true super stars. But that w…

I think this reveals some of the root of the problem. The interviewers have no incentive for hiring good or great people ("superstars"), but absolutely cannot let crappy applicants inside, under no circumstances, under the risk of losing their jobs. So they just don't care if you are good at what you do, if you can learn fast, etc -- all they care if whether you are not shit and can certainly fulfill the specific req…

"Not shit" is the way we get rid of 90% of people. "Superstar" is how we hire from the remaining.

We absolutely cannot bring in someone crap. Our job is to hire, so if we're hiring crap people, we're crap at our job.

See my comments elsewhere in this thread regarding learning fast, but basically I'm going to hire someone who can learn fast. But primarily I'm going to hire someone who doesn't need to learn the 'right now' skill.

I'd love to see a system that tied each of my hire's success to my success. It happens for the first three months: "Hey lessnonymous: this guy is brilliant! Good job!".

But I want to see a system where each pay-rise or promotion the engineer ever gets is recorded against my success too.

"We see your hires got a salary increase of 10% on average. Here's your 10% increase." (It would need to be waaaay more complex than that to look at churn, promotions, firings etc.)

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#124

Post by dgreensp »

dlss wrote: post #44
Hovertruck wrote: post #24

This analogy is backwards... Hiring a programmer is an exchange of company money (or equity, benefits, etc) for a service (programming skills). Renting a car is an exchange of one's own money for a service (use of the car). In this case, the person renting the car would be "interviewing" the car rental company to determine if their service is worth their money.

Maybe this is me having spent too much time thinking about econ, but I don't get why the analogy is backwards here. What is special about the person spending money? A car rental company is filling a large number of slots, and the renter would like to fill one. Why is that not as natural an analogy point for you? Instead of "whoever is giving up money should do the due diligence," I would suggest you consider "both si…

Because car rental companies exist to provide a service to the people who walk into them, so we walk in expecting to be served, providing we can pay. It's a simple transaction; they get money, you get use of a car. Everyone is happy. If they start giving you the third degree, you'll be inclined to respond, "Geez, do they want my money or not?".

To walk into a job interview with the same expectation of being "served" is ridiculous. It's true that if they're smart, they will try to entice you and provide a nice experience, but primarily they are trying to decide whether to spend large amounts of time and money on you versus someone else. Most companies are not in the business of quickly and efficiently hiring as many people off the street as possible. You can be flustered by an interviewer's poor technique, but don't be impatient to receive the job offer you feel entitled to.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#125

Post by emperorcezar »

greendestiny wrote: post #107
codemac wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You post this every time, and I want to decry the astro turfing.. but it's good information, well referenced, and I don't have the background or time to refute anything you've said.

I don't think posting the same information again and again is welcome. The people who might be inspired to debate it simply can't have a discussion about it every time it appears - and it goes beyond wanting to engage with the community and share something and becomes an attempt to manipulate. I'd certainly encourage tokenadult to stop posting it.

I haven't seen it before. Good enough reason to me to have it reposted.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#126

Post by ucee054 »

lessnonymous wrote: post #120
ucee054 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't complain that you can't find any candidates. That's what you employers do: you filter out everybody, so there are left like 3 people in the same continent who fit your arbitrary criteria. Then all of you get into a bidding war over those 3, and most of you find that you can't afford to hire. Finally, you start whinging about a "talent crisis" and blaming the universities for not producing people with the r…

Where did I complain about not finding candidates? Where did I whinge about a 'talent crisis'. Nowhere I'm aware of. At a guess you're projecting other managers complaints on to me. I'm not in the U.S. and don't have these problems. So you've got actual words from actual me: * Those three people are worth the bidding war. They're worth 10 times the next rung down. * I need to fill the position with the best possible…

"They're worth 10 times the next rung down"

So you will pay 10 times more salary, rather than waiting a couple of months for a new engineer to get up to speed? You must be in a hurry. What about all those other employers doing enterprise CRUD apps, are they in a similar hurry?

"I need to fill the position with the best possible person"

I assume then you are not working on enterprise CRUD or dinky mobile apps like everybody else. Are you competing with Unreal's next game engine? Or working on a rocket to Mars? Because your peer employers are NOT.

Yeah, those guys who complain about not finding candidates.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#127

Post by dllthomas »

greendestiny wrote: post #107
codemac wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You post this every time, and I want to decry the astro turfing.. but it's good information, well referenced, and I don't have the background or time to refute anything you've said.

I don't think posting the same information again and again is welcome. The people who might be inspired to debate it simply can't have a discussion about it every time it appears - and it goes beyond wanting to engage with the community and share something and becomes an attempt to manipulate. I'd certainly encourage tokenadult to stop posting it.

I think the optimal solution might be to post a link to the comment on a previous version of the article, where the discussion's been had before?

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#128

Post by dllthomas »

RegEx wrote: post #97
koide wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it you mean "hackers are particularly good at arguing the analogy to an absurd extent" (This being an example of course)

Save the topic of pedantry for another thread my friend ;)

Strictly speaking, it was less pedantry and more... okay, I give up.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#129

Post by dllthomas »

npsimons wrote: post #102
rosser wrote: post #13

Maybe it's because I just made the egregious mistake of getting drawn into a gun-control debate with a friend and his friends on Facebook, but hyperbolic arguments by analogy feel really silly, cheap, and disingenuous to me right now...

Reasoning from analogies is like tying your shoes with laces made of butter.

Delicious?

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#130

Post by dllthomas »

amalcon wrote: post #122
koide wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will very likely need real time guarantees the JVM does not provide. (The "off the shelf" bit's a hint)

Absolutely correct. I was thinking of things along the lines of "use JDK 1.2, which still lets you turn off the garbage collector, and then spend 100% of your time after startup in a JNI module." That's the least scary version.

What about "Use java code to output C code; compile C code; run C code."?
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