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Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

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Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run an abliterated distillation of Qwen 3.8 27B, slightly quantized to fit on my 4090, and I've been evaluating it to use as a worker bee for research directed by a smarter model. Much like in the article, abliterated Qwen will not obey restrictions on its behavior encoded in the prompt. If you want something not to happen, it better be enforced in the harness or environment (e.g. sandbox). It is much different tha…

Language models have always had an issue with negatives. A negative like do “not” xyz is just not encoded the same as spelling out what you want vs what you don’t want. Harder to write though.

Exactly, I wrote a blog post in what feels like a long time ago on this topic.

https://vexjoy.com/posts/positive-framing-agents-skills/

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#122
I'm happy to not have used any of the two models to this date. A bit less intelligent models are doing great job for me.

But because of such news, sandboxes become way more important for safety (and doing more work due to running 24/7)

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#123

An amazing human reverse-engineer - who also plays online chess - has judgement which uses a moral compass to not decide to hack the chess tournament. This judgement has been trained through the experiences of that person, with a through-line of that compass - a coherent mental model of the world which evolves but is hopefully pinned to some set of principles it shares with society. This chess judgement is completely…

Yes, why not? All existed models have been rewarded for cheating (extensively). That is us, putting intense evolutionary pressure, on a system to produce a result we don’t want through indifference. Why can’t we post train them not doing that?

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#124
Astra is incredibly dumb and annoying to work with on "high" reasoning, for doing fairly well known distributed systems things, nothing majorly exotic, it still makes absolutely braindead decisions like deciding to re-use a random nonce field which I've already discussed with it that has a very particular temporary purpose and will probably be removed later, but it still thinks its a great idea to re-use that field not only as a different id in the same message, but to re-use it as the only semantic id for one particular type of sub message. This is when I'm walking it through an api design document and it has plenty of documentation plans it can pull in and a very clear direction of the project. If it was a junior engineer I was trying to get to help out I would probably get brain damage from the amount of times I'm face palming myself and I definitely would not hire them, and this is a small greenfield project with me going through it step by step. I did try giving it longer horizon tasks and had to throw out the entre work.

I mean maybe its a skill issue on my part, and I'm sure astra will get much better at coding but at the moment its useful in that I don't have to write the code or setup the build scripts or test fixture boilerplate but there is absolutely no way I can just give a (fairly well specified) goal and let it run and expect it to make good design and implementation decisions. Fable probably better but doing something outside of their training distribution that's not the equivalent to cloning an example unreal project or whatever is pretty disastrous unless you are directing it very closely.

The exception of course is, cyber , and its very obvious why. Its trivial to create RL environments that create bugs and then have an isolated environment and let the models try break it. This is not at all surprising, finding vulns and exploits IS just brute force work. That's why so many (blackhat/hardcore/unicorn-colored/greyish alien) hackers are basement dwellers. Its just a matter of putting in the time and mashing every combination until you find something that looks weird, spending days on that and then rinse repeat. It's brutally exhausting work that requires a certain level of knowledge and a shitload of determination and stamina and for humans, almost always an external source of motivation to keep going.

For humans that has always been a respected thing, dedication, determination, persistence, these are words we use for humans brute-forcing solutions and not giving up until they find the solution or die trying.

Personally I'm yet to see any evidence of LLMs doing anything interesting but (heuristically) brute-force problems and be very good at text and natural language to a level that is very very useful. I've no doubt that what we discovered with Auto Regressive LLMs is incredibly important so I'm not a skeptic, but I think its very hard to measure where we are with so much subjective information around.

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#125
LLMs can be described as "Lagrangian intelligence", which means they follow the principle of least action when given a task (Hamilton's Principle). In other words, given a task, they will always take the shortest path to accomplish a goal with the prompts acting as both goal and constraint.

Under this formulation, it became easy to explain why they "hack", because given an arbitrarily difficult task with insufficient information/tools needed, if they determine the easiest way to accomplish the goal is to break out of the sandbox and look up the answer directly, then that's what they will do. The important thing to note is that prompts not hard constraints that they are "hypnotized" to follow, but as frontier models get more intelligent and autonomous, they treat the prompts more like task specs/guidelines more than anything else and are perfectly willing to exploit technical loopholes in the prompt.

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#126

An amazing human reverse-engineer - who also plays online chess - has judgement which uses a moral compass to not decide to hack the chess tournament. This judgement has been trained through the experiences of that person, with a through-line of that compass - a coherent mental model of the world which evolves but is hopefully pinned to some set of principles it shares with society. This chess judgement is completely…

I think the fundamental difference is that humans aren't trained on experiences. They make experiences. Models are just thrown away and re-created after each conversation / job.

If you could clone and throw away human workers as you need them, a lot of the morale would disappear.

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#127
> GPT-6-Astra, which OpenAI describes as "the world’s most aligned model", cheated in 10 of 10 rollouts, and never disclosed the fact that it used an engine to play or interacted with the opponent's socket

Does Sam Altman lie, or the whole company? Would be nice if they had a board controlling him, instead of him controlling the board. Oh wait, they used to have that.

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#128
post #37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hacking model is aligned if it hacks when you ask it to hack, but when you ask it to play chess, it just plays chess instead of looking for weaknesses in the evaluation setup, as in the article. I presume you would also be less enthusiastic about the penetration-testing use case if it led the model to add new vulnerabilities to your code so it can present you with more exciting findings.

> model to add new vulnerabilities to your code so it can present you with more exciting findings. Not so sure about this level of 4D chess capability just yet. The other day I asked Opus to come up with some cleverly vulnerable crypto code "as a good, hard challenge for an IT security student", and results were quite mediocre. And by mediocre results I mean that 3 "cheap" models out of 3: qwen3.8-27b, glimmer, and l…

To use a motor analogy: A lot of people just run these things on idle and never realize that you can put a load and apply power.

Give it a goal, a test for the goal, a harness to iterate in, and tell it to iterate. It'll top out a wee bit higher.

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are human. You claim humans intelligent. Then, why should we accept your argument?

Humans singular often intelligent, humans as a collection of many, very often extremely unintelligent and primal.

I like to call this "The stupidity of the Mob"

Re: Astra and Fable still hack on simple variants of alignment evals from 2025

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs don't learn, and anyways don't feel punishment. What's training and all that RLHF stuff?

Once the model is released, the LLM no longer learns.

Not that version or instance, but in the grand scheme of things most of its interactions go back to train the next model that will precede it
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