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A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

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Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#121

Post by idiotsecant »

fluoridation wrote: post #61
idiotsecant wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it reproduces it perfectly it's not a symbolic representation of the thing, it is the thing, by any definition that makes sense.

It's not the thing, because the thing is made of substance, not electronic impulses. No matter how hard you compute, you will never compute the simulation into a real, tangible object. The simulation and the real object are extremely, obviously distinguishable, even though they're structurally analogous. If you could simulate a human perfectly , the simulated human would not be a human, it would be a simulated human.…

If you could simulate a human perfectly how would it possibly not be'subject to the same rules of ethics' as humans? What you've created is a human. If a system takes the same inputs and creates the same output it's the same system on different substrate. You don't say a human stops being a human if you put them on a ventilator, do you? Part of that system is now in an external substrate. How much of the biological human can be outside the meat body before you stop recognizing them as human?

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#122

Post by dainank »

fluoridation wrote: post #90
dainank wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If the simulation of electronic impulses is exactly the same as what occurs 'in the substance', then merely the medium over which signals occur is different. In my eyes, whatever is experiencing these signals will experience them the same way. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48175140#48177554

Sorry, I can't respond because I don't know which statement in particular you're disagreeing with. What I can say is that, unless you're using words in a surprising way, I agree with >If the simulation of electronic impulses is exactly the same as what occurs 'in the substance', then merely the medium over which signals occur is different. In my eyes, whatever is experiencing these signals will experience them the sa…

Sorry, this is my mistake, I misread the following statement:

> If you could simulate a human perfectly, the simulated human would not be a human, it would be a simulated human. It's not a given that it would be subject to the same rules of ethics as real humans.

I am glad we agree. Regarding this second statement, I also agree with you having reread it now. Even if the entity (simulated human) receiving signals is experiencing from their PoV the exact same data, from our perspective knowing this is a 'simulated human' and not a 'human' we indeed cannot assume it is subject to the same rules like you said.

Apologies for misreading your initial message.

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#123

Post by dsign »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #15

I have no exposure to connectomes - or really anything quite like this (as opposed to good ol’ fashioned perceptrons) - so forgive my following uninformed question: Can someone explain if this software is ethical?

> if this software is ethical?

IMO, it absolutely is.

First, if fruit flies could suffer existential anguish the same way humans do, they would breathe in relief that digital upload is in sight.

Second, even if the fruit flies don't care, a lot of (awful) humans would love a resolution to the matter of souls in a way that results in a raised middle finger to a forever-hypothetical Creator, and if we can't yet escape cancer, heart disease, parkinson and all the other awfuls, now at least the fruit flies are on their way out. Which rejoices said (truly awful!) humans, which will take what they can :-)

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#124

Post by ivell »

yawpitch wrote: post #119
ivell wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, Jains consume diary products.

You tell me where the consumption of dairy products must result in harm to the cow. I grew up around small-scale, subsistence-level dairy farming, it doesn’t inherently require any more suffering than either egg-harvesting or apple-growing inherently do. A Jain doesn’t have to purchase milk from a factory farmer. And AFAIK even the most stringent vegans don’t brush insects from their path with every step, or avoid on…

If we are really into an ethics discussion, enslaving a species to drink milk meant for their newborns would be an issue.

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#125

Post by melagonster »

jeffybefffy519 wrote: post #112
solid_fuel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than that, real neurons don’t behave anything like the ones we model in neural networks - real ones signal with pulses, in a manner where the timing seems as significant as the magnitude of the impulse. Typically simulated neural networks use continuous analog values instead of pulses and a sigmoid function to shape the output. Basically, the “wiring” might be the same but nothing beyond that is. - - - Actually,…

Isnt there also a theory and some evidence that the connectome is not enough to model a brain. Based on the fact that butterlies connectome dissolves during metamorphosis to butterfly but it still remembers things from before that stage of life.

We also have the connectome of Nematode (Caenorhabditis elegans), but researchers lack funding to determine the weights, too.

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#126

Post by _bent »

a1o wrote: post #11

> What's modeled vs. measured > Honesty section: I wouldn’t mind an human written README

The other day the system prompts for Claude (chat not code) hit the frontpage and they included a bit that something along the lines of "Claude should avoid saying honestly, because Claude is always honest". So how come that these Claudisms still are so frequent in LLM output? Do the system prompts just not work? Don't the postprocess the output to deal with such policy violations?

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#127

Post by marliechiller »

yawpitch wrote: post #119
ivell wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, Jains consume diary products.

You tell me where the consumption of dairy products must result in harm to the cow. I grew up around small-scale, subsistence-level dairy farming, it doesn’t inherently require any more suffering than either egg-harvesting or apple-growing inherently do. A Jain doesn’t have to purchase milk from a factory farmer. And AFAIK even the most stringent vegans don’t brush insects from their path with every step, or avoid on…

1. Artificial insemination without consent 2. Birth and all of its pain and potential complications 3. Removal of offspring as early as possible to repeat steps 1 and 2 and so prolong lactation 4. Mastitis

All of these result in suffering much worse than egg harvesting imo. Reluctant dairy eater btw

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#128

Post by marliechiller »

shaky-carrousel wrote: post #102
invalidusernam3 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you choose not to have empathy for a living creature?

Because lice are also living creatures. And I have no empathy for them, and hopefully never will.

Lice have no choice in their lot in the universe. Do you think if they had intelligence the ability to choose their lot that they would choose their current one again? I doubt it personally. You can detest their mode of existence whilst still having empathy for them I think

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#129

Post by ludvigk »

ACCount37 wrote: post #118
yawpitch wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your circle of empathy doesn’t include fruit flies, endeavor to expand your circular of empathy until it does. Goto 0.

If your circle of empathy includes fruit flies, shrink and prune until it no longer does.

How small should my circle of empathy be? Obviously humans are included, or ...?

Re: A 3D fruit fly on macOS desktop powered by the real FlyWire connectome

#130

Post by inigyou »

jeffybefffy519 wrote: post #112
solid_fuel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than that, real neurons don’t behave anything like the ones we model in neural networks - real ones signal with pulses, in a manner where the timing seems as significant as the magnitude of the impulse. Typically simulated neural networks use continuous analog values instead of pulses and a sigmoid function to shape the output. Basically, the “wiring” might be the same but nothing beyond that is. - - - Actually,…

Isnt there also a theory and some evidence that the connectome is not enough to model a brain. Based on the fact that butterlies connectome dissolves during metamorphosis to butterfly but it still remembers things from before that stage of life.

Butterflies dissolving is an urban legend. They don't dissolve. Caterpillars have wing stubs inside them.

Someone probably cut open a chrysalis and saw goop come out, so they assumed it was just a bag of goop. But goop would also come out of a cut open caterpillar, or a cut open butterfly, or a cut open human.

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