Earlier quoted context omitted.
have you been inside a big tech company? there arent many american fresh grads working there, its mostly foreign
[flagged]
What's wrong with being mediocre?
AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
121–130 of 800 posts
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
All fields are basically over as a long term career besides perhaps prostitutes and even there I'm not entirely sure. But the questions of how soon and by how much matter a lot. Being early is the same as being wrong a clever guy once said.
no programming is verifiable, and the major LLM companies are focused on it. its the first domino to fall by probably 5+ years
I think this is true.
A lot of AI believers (me too fwiw) seem to forget it’s a lot harder to ‘close the loop’ on non-code projects. I think this is because they are usually coders.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
People have been fretting about 'foreigners' taking their jobs for decades and it never really happened. This is all about LLM's. I mean, think about it; just a few short years ago there was a very strong market for software engineers, despite outsourcing and immigration being very much part of the landscape.
Orrrrrr... it could be a complex combination of outsourcing, an over-reliance on degrees, LLMs, a lack of "apprenticeship" mentoring, etc etc etc. I was very fortunate to get a job in a NOC a little bit after high school where I learned things one'd expect to learn in an entry level job. The team I worked on was all about mentorship, learning, and building people to the next level. Haven't seen that attitude elsewher…
I'd also throw in hiring practice. Whatever we're doing (across the board) to find candidates seems....less ideal.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#124I think of it more as "the automation of the stackoverflow engineer". In enterprise software, there has always just been a non-negotiable large volume of code that was required to be written. This has traditionally been offloaded by having seniors do the hard thinking then distill it into a jira ticket which could be handed off to an engineer that'd actually write the code and punch every hiccup into google along the…
Again, this ignores the second order effect of entirely gutting the personnel pipeline that is required to create new senior devs... So without a training pipeline to provide experience to jr. Devs, in 15 years we will be hurting for senior devs to replace all the graybeards. Kind of like the fortran crisis of the last decade or so.... Just across an entire industry that supports every other industry....
I think that’s a completely different problem.
I’ve worked with two junior devs recently who are very good precisely because they’re trying to understand what they’re doing, rather than just producing code.
I’ve also worked with senior devs who basically gave up and stopped trying to understand the code. They became much worse engineers as a result. At this point I would much rather work with those 2 juniors.
They use it to explore things they don’t understand, ask me questions to clarify their reasoning, double-check assumptions. They generally use the tools available to increase their understanding.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#125I think of it more as "the automation of the stackoverflow engineer". In enterprise software, there has always just been a non-negotiable large volume of code that was required to be written. This has traditionally been offloaded by having seniors do the hard thinking then distill it into a jira ticket which could be handed off to an engineer that'd actually write the code and punch every hiccup into google along the…
>This has traditionally been offloaded by having seniors do the hard thinking then distill it into a jira ticket which could be handed off to an engineer that'd actually write the code and punch every hiccup into google along the way. This is the theory, but I’ve never worked anywhere (and I’ve worked at a lot of places over 20 years) that actually did it like that in practice. What tends to happen is that the EMs an…
Oh I'd say its real. Years ago I worked as that senior who divvied up the work to a team of 4 mid-level engineers in that exact fashion (they were mostly Latin American contractors with limited english). We actually shipped some good stuff too!
Unfortunately, looking back, I could easily see Claude replacing 3 out of 4 of those developers. Myself + one other dev + AI would probably would've shipped a bit more a little faster. With that said tokens aren't free so the net cost savings would've been 2 dev salaries maximum.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#126> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…
Ironically, AI mitigates bad developers quite a bit. The architecture/design is coming from above bad devs (in a functional org), and AI tends to write less sloppy code than bad devs, and test/validate it more rigorously.
I don't agree here. Yes Claude is great at following patterns, and for very standard tasks (e.g. "add this HTTP handler" which can copy existing patterns for database transaction management, session management, authentication, etc etc) it does great! The problem is that when you do something that doesn't quite fit int an existing pattern, Claude will optimize for solving the task at hand, producing code that doesn't use a sensible architecture. Doing things like checking user credentials or establishing a database connection deep in domain logic.
If you're a good dev, you can totally prompt Claude to not do this and correct itself, that's not an issue. The issue is that bad devs won't even notice this is happening in the first place.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#127> In the story above, everyone is failing:
IMO The author fails to list the hypothetical person with 13 PRs to review is also failing.
> * The engineer who refuses to change with the times
IMO many of the old ways of software engineering were local maxima. We're still seeking how to hit a new maxima and the journey may take us through zones lower than the previous local maxima.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are 100K H1-Bs a year and 4 million grads a year in the US. Anyone who thinks H1-Bs are actually contributing to their inability to find a job is a moron.
But those H1Bs all come for a very narrow set of work - mostly software development or other adjacent roles. So your 4 million figure that counts all graduates in all fields doesn't make sense when we talk about tech. There are around 100k U.S CS graduates . You're telling me 100k H1-Bs don't make any impact on them?
You're counting only CS bachelors, in reality there's 400K graduates a year in software engineering fields.
There's also only 60,000 H1-Bs a year for private companies.
Lastly the majority of H1-Bs doesn't go to software engineering jobs, it's around 30-50%.
There's also basically no US company hiring juniors via H1-Bs, so yeah, I'm saying it doesn't make any meaningful impact.
30K H1-Bs versus 400K grads...
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#129One thing this post did not discuss is the enormous effort required to explain to the management why number PRs has increased and number of lines changes, which in their view, means explosion of productivity, yet one engineer is destroying the team's momentum.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the field is basically over as a long term career unless you are truly exceptional. It will become very easy to build most software, and the upper end will be filled with the top people in the country/from abroad. Wages are certainly going down for most software roles
Only if you run out of things to write. Is your back log ever empty?
I'm hopeful that software will be applied in new areas where it was too costly before, with AI help it will be possible. Software will be cheaper, even more prevalent, lower quality in since respects, but SW engineering will still be a viable career.