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Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

arstechnica.com

121–130 of 156 posts

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#121
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently I need help understanding why this matters more than simply prioritizing countries who emit the most. Do you want to reduce total emissions or do you want reduce it equitably across countries? The greenhouse effect doesn’t care how equitable the reductions are.

I think the best way to understand the problem is to imagine China taking your concerns seriously and satisfying them by drawing a line down the middle and declaring themselves to now be two countries. They’re both so far down the list now!

That’s an interesting hypothetical. In the same vein of “assume the cow is spherical”, I also have a degenerate example! Suppose the Vatican City has horrific per capita emissions. Maybe the pope has a gastrointestinal disorder involving frequent methane emissions. The pope is otherwise healthy and will remain in office for decades. China and India point at them “but per capita emissions!” and refuse to do anything.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#122
post #63
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without enough information to truly place it in context, you may be focusing on something that may not have a notable impact on the overall problem. For starters, why focus on the plant being built when it has been permitted. If you focused on the permitting process presumably you could prevent many instances simultaneously.

How would focusing on one of the largest new CO2 emitters not have a notable impact? It probably shouldn’t have been permitted in the first place so I’m with you let’s block it there next time. But in the meantime… we should just let it get built? Edit: https://cleanview.co/reports/behind-the-meter-data-centers Texas is just ripping through these things since it’s so permissive. That’s troubling for the other states…

>How would focusing on one of the largest new CO2 emitters not have a notable impact?

Because without context you have no idea what that actually means.

If you get attacked by an unknown number of duck sized horses, how much of an effect would defeating the largest of them have?

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#124
"They produce harmful pollutants, which can accelerate climate change impacts and harm public health—contributing to conditions like asthma, heart disease, lung cancer, and strokes."

Per kWh, natural gas plants emit half as much CO2 as coal plants and almost zero sulfur and particulate pollution.

They emit little nitrous oxide and almost zero mercury/heavy-metals.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#125
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best way to understand the problem is to imagine China taking your concerns seriously and satisfying them by drawing a line down the middle and declaring themselves to now be two countries. They’re both so far down the list now!

That’s an interesting hypothetical. In the same vein of “assume the cow is spherical”, I also have a degenerate example! Suppose the Vatican City has horrific per capita emissions. Maybe the pope has a gastrointestinal disorder involving frequent methane emissions. The pope is otherwise healthy and will remain in office for decades. China and India point at them “but per capita emissions!” and refuse to do anything.

Hahaha. Sounds like a good case for normalization. If I were the Pope still, I’d say, “okay! Let’s both reduce our emissions by the same amount per capita!”

Though it’s so much more complex than that so maybe we form an intergovernmental panel to try to sort this out.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#126
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That poll says Americans broadly oppose data centers in their local area . A poll of all Americans would likely find broad majority support for the construction of data centers in Texas; a poll isomorphic to this one would also find similarly broad opposition to the construction of apartment buildings in their local area.

It is kind of bonkers if you consider that all of us already had "data centers" in our backyards already. Every corporation and even most small businesses have had a machine room, wiring closet, or some kind of server shoved into a room, since 30 years ago now. They all had them in every office building you ever drove by, or lived next to, or shopped near. It's simply that people didn't even register them, because no…

Really living up to the name there. :)

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a time and place for fossil fuels. I see too many people scream for electrification in new biuldings yet do not hesitate to operate a backyard grill, or eat out at restaurants (electrifying a commercial kitchen is a massive ask).

> I see too many people scream for electrification in new biuldings yet do not hesitate to operate a backyard grill, or eat out at restaurants It's not hypocrisy to want things to be better and tolerate that some things are net negative. I have a fireplace and enjoy using it. But it's bad for my kids health and neighborhood air quality. So I use it far less than my parents did theirs. I also don't commute and fly far…

Well, for those who want to ban gas stovetops in new biulding, it is a binary world. The reality is that home cooking is a rounding error in terms of energy usage.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#128
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right--it's probably fine. Why focus on this one source of pollution when there are others?

Because without enough information to truly place it in context, you may be focusing on something that may not have a notable impact on the overall problem. For starters, why focus on the plant being built when it has been permitted. If you focused on the permitting process presumably you could prevent many instances simultaneously.

Regardless, we expect better from our corporate overlords.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#129
post #122
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would focusing on one of the largest new CO2 emitters not have a notable impact? It probably shouldn’t have been permitted in the first place so I’m with you let’s block it there next time. But in the meantime… we should just let it get built? Edit: https://cleanview.co/reports/behind-the-meter-data-centers Texas is just ripping through these things since it’s so permissive. That’s troubling for the other states…

>How would focusing on one of the largest new CO2 emitters not have a notable impact? Because without context you have no idea what that actually means. If you get attacked by an unknown number of duck sized horses, how much of an effect would defeating the largest of them have?

So what context do you think is missing from this debate about whether massive GHG emissions are good or bad?

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#130
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have long advocated that EU should be in the forefront and start sunsetting fossil fueled power generation, by setting a date when no new construction is allowed and then letting the existing fleet naturally die. It would send a strong signal to the rest of the world that we can't keep constructing new thermal power stations that continue to burn fuel whenever we have need to increase capacity and grid stability. S…

This is a national security nightmare. For better or worse, fossil fuels have massive energy densities, which makes economics in defense context (and others) extremely favorable. Even with today’s energy polices, electricity costs have skyrocketed (this was the case before the data center demand). Couple that with electrification of vehicles, phase out of natural gas/oil heaters, I think its reckless abandon to push…

In the EU's case, dependence on Russian gas is already a national security nightmare.
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