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The Folly of Scientism

thenewatlantis.com

121–130 of 139 posts

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#121
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love and emotions are being studied scientifically. The neurotransmitters behind love and affection are extremely well studied. One could quite easily construct experiments to see if exiting fMRI technology can determine the difference between a brain experiencing love and one not. These questions are in every way within the domain of science.

While this is all true, it wouldn't tell us much about the actual experience of feeling the emotion. That would remain metaphysical.

I do not see any reason to suppose this is true. I grant that this is question that is not being tackled by current research (as far as I know, as neuroscience and theoretical neuroscience are in a period of boom right now), but that does not make it scientifically intractable. There is little I can say about this as I do not know what you mean by "the actual experience".

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#122
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all question are scientific question then what is a question 'What is right (in the sense of morals)?' and can that answer in any way help me? Science isn't about truth. Science is about three things. Making hypothesis, making decisions based on hypothesis and testing them. It has no singular answer and that answer changes depending on scales we operate.

Of course "what is right" is a scientific question. If science (i.e reason and evidence) has nothing to say about it, then what does? What is right follows directly from what is true. For example, if animals are indeed sentient, if they are self-aware even, if they can suffer, are scientific questions. If scientific answers to these questions are positive, then some of us sufficiently evolved, aware humans can't igno…

Oh, what science deals with it then? What experimental evidence is that this thing you do is right as opposed to another? What models are made, what predictions do they make? Are they good at predicting wrong from right?

Is it wrong to steal? Is it wrong to steal to feed yourself when you are starving? Is it wrong to lie? Is it wrong to lie to a known murderer that was asking about your friends whereabouts, knowing that he will hurt him? What if we have no free will, but we behave better when we are lied about it? Should the system lie about nature of our decisions? What else should system (i.e. state, school, college...) lie us about?

Science is good when there is objective reality underlying its assumptions. When there isn't any strong objective reality it kinda doesn't work as well.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#123
post #100
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies for attacking what is your career, but I think your explanation for the tasks handled by the humanities is self-defeating. > There are areas involving qualia that could probably be handled by science eventually but the tools at our disposal are too crude for the moment so the humanities get them. Please give examples of these and explain a) Why, if science cannot be done with these questions, is anything el…

>Please give examples of these and Here's a Greek manuscript. There's a lacuna in the text. What is the most likely correct emendation? If you use a statistical method to answer, explain how you compiled your corpus of comparisons. >explain a) Why, if science cannot be done with these questions, is anything else worth doing? Oh my yes, just like football and gourmet cooking are worth doing. Besides which, your scienc…

I think we must be operating with very different definitions of science. In so far as a humanities scholar employs scientific methods, I am happy to call him a scientist.

> Here's a Greek manuscript. There's a lacuna in the text. What is the most likely correct emendation? If you use a statistical method to answer, explain how you compiled your corpus of comparisons.

This lacuna is going to be filled using scientific thinking employed by the humanities scholar doing the. He is going to make comparisons to other documents and to other knowledge about the period, language, etc. That is to have some hypotheses about the lacuna, he is going to gather data, and then he is going to analyze that data in the context of the lacuna and propose solutions.

As has been pointed out, there are existing computational systems that do this kind of work. There is a long history of work on this kind of problem from information theory and cryptography.

> Oh my yes, just like football and gourmet cooking are worth doing. Besides which, your science labs are going to need industrial designers and lawyers, and at least a couple historians of science to warn you away from past methodological errors. Which means you also need at least a few scholars of rhetoric, fine arts, philology, general history and archaeology to train them.

I did not make my point clearly. Let me make it again: if your methodology does not produce parsimonious models of the world that can be used to make accurate predictions, then what is the point of doing it? If you cannot produce testable claims of fact about the world, what is the point in doing it?

I was suggesting to you, to take a jocular example, that if you know that astrology does not work, then it is not worth doing, even if it is your only method of making predictions.

Your point about industrial designers and lawyers is a non sequitur in this context. I am talking about methods of discovery and methods of testing knowledge claims.

As to psychoanalysis, the reason I brought it up is that it is still rampant in large parts the humanities: intellectual history, comparative literature, and English the chief problem fields.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they are referring to the phenomenon of consciousness, rather than the experience of consciousness itself.

Where does that demarcation line fall? Is there anything to consciousness besides the experiential phenomenon? To illustrate: there is no such thing as the movie "It's a Wonderful Life", just a series of individual frames that our eyes and brains perceive as a whole unit only because of perceptual and cognitive limitations (basically, compression). We know far less of anything beyond the present moment - speaking of…

Do you regard the subjective experience of being concious as a something that can be adequately described by detailing neurological processes? As in, I know you might argue that a specific combination of atoms will correspond to a specific mental state. That doesn't really tell you anything about the subjective experience of being in that mental state though.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#125
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is all true, it wouldn't tell us much about the actual experience of feeling the emotion. That would remain metaphysical.

I do not see any reason to suppose this is true. I grant that this is question that is not being tackled by current research (as far as I know, as neuroscience and theoretical neuroscience are in a period of boom right now), but that does not make it scientifically intractable. There is little I can say about this as I do not know what you mean by "the actual experience".

As in, the difference between the neurological processes that govern ones mental state, and the subjective experience of having that mental state.

For example, if I'm hungry and eat a good meal the changes in my brain chemistry that induce the sense of well being that follows are well understood.

That doesn't tell me anything at all about the actual subjective experience of feeling pleasure though. That is something distinct.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#126
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when you start poking around you not only find out there is absolutely no evidence to back them up, but there is plenty of evidence that they man made. You have no capacity to determine if something is true without the process of trial and error. This is the founding principal of the scientific mindset and is the basis of the scientific method. Form a hypothesis, test the hypothesis, repeat. How do you "test" a rel…

First of all I'm a mathematician, in my 40s and I can think for myself quite well, thanks. Second, it is perfectly possible to reach true statements and falsify well false ones without experiments, like we do in math all the time. But more importantly for this discussion, religion is not some guide for moral living. If it were so, there would be no problem with religion. No, religion is all about absolutism, it is a…

> No, religion is all about absolutism, it is a totalitarian world view by definition. It is argument from certainty.

This strikes me as scientific fundamentalism. Many religions seem to incorporate a great deal of questioning and reflection, like Wicca and Buddhism.

> And seriously, believing something as absolute because it makes you feel good is a definition of delusion.

Few people could conceive and systematize people as tending to become trapped in a cycle of appetites and fears, and deduce ways of thinking to help escape from the cycle. The Buddha could. You need not accept every letter of dogma to improve yourself with Buddhism, any more than you need to accept alchemy to learn from the teachings of Newton.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#127
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course "what is right" is a scientific question. If science (i.e reason and evidence) has nothing to say about it, then what does? What is right follows directly from what is true. For example, if animals are indeed sentient, if they are self-aware even, if they can suffer, are scientific questions. If scientific answers to these questions are positive, then some of us sufficiently evolved, aware humans can't igno…

Oh, what science deals with it then? What experimental evidence is that this thing you do is right as opposed to another? What models are made, what predictions do they make? Are they good at predicting wrong from right? Is it wrong to steal? Is it wrong to steal to feed yourself when you are starving? Is it wrong to lie? Is it wrong to lie to a known murderer that was asking about your friends whereabouts, knowing t…

We are still in early stages of developing scientific answers to these questions. But they are fundamentally scientific. Note also that like culinary tastes there may not be unique answers to these questions, but sure it does not mean that all diets are equally good for your health.

Human well-being entirely depends on events in the world and on states of the human brain. Consequently, there must be scientific truths to be known about it. A more detailed understanding of these truths will force us to draw clear distinctions between different ways of living in society with one another, judging some to be better or worse, more or less true to the facts, and more or less ethical. Clearly, such insights could help us to improve the quality of human life.

We may not be able to resolve every moral controversy through science. Differences of opinion will remain. But opinions will be increasingly constrained by facts. And it is important to realize that our inability to answer a question says nothing about whether the question itself has an answer. Exactly how many people were bitten by mosquitoes in the last sixty seconds? How many of these people will contract malaria? How many will die as a result? Given the technical challenges involved, no team of scientists could possibly respond to such questions. And yet we know that they admit of simple numerical answers. Does our inability to gather the relevant data oblige us to respect all opinions equally? Of course not. In the same way, the fact that we may not be able to resolve specific moral dilemmas does not suggest that all competing responses to them are equally valid. Mistaking no answers in practice for no answers in principle is a great source of confusion.

People who want to argue moral questions are not scientific are in effect saying reason is powerless to answer the most important questions in human life. And how a person perceives the gulf between facts and values seems to influence their views on almost every issue of social importance— from the fighting of wars to the education of children.

This rupture in our thinking has different consequences at each end of the spectrum: religious conservatives tend to believe that there are right answers to questions of meaning and morality, but only because the God of Abraham deems it so. They concede that ordinary facts can be discovered through rational inquiry, but they believe that values must come from a voice in a whirlwind. Scriptural literalism, intolerance of diversity, mistrust of science, disregard for the real causes of human and animal suffering, this is how the division between facts and values expresses itself on the religious right.

From the point of view of popular culture, science often seems like little more than a hatchery for technology. While most educated people will concede that the scientific method has delivered centuries of fresh embarrassment to religion on matters of fact, it is now an article of almost unquestioned certainty, both inside and outside scientific circles, that science has nothing to say about what constitutes a good life. Religious thinkers in all faiths, and on both ends of the political spectrum, are united on precisely this point; the defense one most often hears for belief in God is not that there is compelling evidence for his existence, but that faith in him is the only reliable source of meaning and moral guidance. Mutually incompatible religious traditions now take refuge behind the same non sequitur.

It seems inevitable, however, that science will gradually encompass life’s deepest questions—and this is guaranteed to provoke a backlash. How we respond to the resulting collision of worldviews will influence the progress of science, of course, but it may also determine whether we succeed in building a global civilization based on shared values. The question of how human beings should live in the twenty-first century has many competing answers—and most of them are surely wrong. Only a rational understanding of human well-being will allow billions of us to coexist peacefully, converging on the same social, political, economic, and environmental goals. A science of human flourishing may seem a long way off, but to achieve it, we must first acknowledge that the intellectual terrain actually exists.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#128
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see any reason to suppose this is true. I grant that this is question that is not being tackled by current research (as far as I know, as neuroscience and theoretical neuroscience are in a period of boom right now), but that does not make it scientifically intractable. There is little I can say about this as I do not know what you mean by "the actual experience".

As in, the difference between the neurological processes that govern ones mental state, and the subjective experience of having that mental state. For example, if I'm hungry and eat a good meal the changes in my brain chemistry that induce the sense of well being that follows are well understood. That doesn't tell me anything at all about the actual subjective experience of feeling pleasure though. That is something…

Is it? The signals in your nervous system that give you the sensation of pain are pain.

Let me make an argument by analogy.

You are saying that understanding the chip architecture and the instruction set of a computer does not allow you to understand what it is like for that chip to run a given program. Is that a fair analogy? Can you improve it?

If this is a fair analogy, then I think it is clear that you are wrong. We absolutely can understand what running a given program is like. We may need to use a different vocabulary and abstract away detail in order to efficiently communicate the idea of running the program (say, talk about a data structure rather than the individual bits that compose it), but that is true in every field. This is basic tool of reasoning.

If that is not a good analogy, please let me know how. I am not satisfied at all that I understand what you mean when you write "the actual subjective experience". I understand what those words mean but I cannot match them with an object.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#129
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet when Hawking does metaphysics, the reverence for science as an institution leads people to treat it as they treat science. This simply is not true. If this sort of a priori judgement occurs, it occurs because Hawking is a famously intelligent and thoughtful person. Of course people take what he says seriously. However, he is also continually engaged in debates with other scientists, often publicly, and is in no…

I think the problem there is that just because someone has made a name for themselves in one field does not imply that they have some sort of superhuman intellect that means they will offer useful insights on a range of subjects. You might think that to be the case but there is no evidence for it being so. Hawking's pontificating on metaphysics are of no more interest to me than Linus Torvald's on laptop screen resol…

> I think the problem there is that just because someone has made a name for themselves in one field does not imply that they have some sort of superhuman intellect that means they will offer useful insights on a range of subjects.

Of course there is no such implication, nor did I make this claim. But it is absolutely true that certain people are simply better at reasoning than other people. This may be because of biological traits, educational difference, difference of habit, etc., but it is certainly true. Any experience with any human will reveal this to you, I think.

> Hawking's pontificating on metaphysics are of no more interest to me than Linus Torvald's on laptop screen resolutions or Richard Dawkin's theoretical thoughts on cosmology.

I am not at all clear why you would say this. In fact, I think you are committing an argument from authority in the reverse. You refuse to listen to this guys because you assume that they are not authorities. That's just bogus and I am sure you know that. Instead, you should listen to Hawking discuss metaphysics and decide if he is worth listening to. You would, I think, do exactly that if it were philosopher speaking.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#130
post #109
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet when Hawking does metaphysics, the reverence for science as an institution leads people to treat it as they treat science. This simply is not true. If this sort of a priori judgement occurs, it occurs because Hawking is a famously intelligent and thoughtful person. Of course people take what he says seriously. However, he is also continually engaged in debates with other scientists, often publicly, and is in no…

If this sort of a priori judgement occurs, it occurs because Hawking is a famously intelligent and thoughtful person. -- The famous "reverse" Ad-Hominem attack? WAT TLDR: Famously intelligent and thoughful people are frequently full of shit, evil, or amoral. Same rules apply. [1] _________ [1] Its worth noting [a] ad-hominem is not a per-se fallacy; And [b] its useful to questions motives. But since many serial kille…

In a word: duh. However, I do not for a second think that you would not listen more closely to someone like Stephen Hawking than you would a guy shouting "Praise Jesus" on a street corner. There is no fallacy involved here. If Hawking is speaking nonsense, his being Stephen Hawking is not going to save him.
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