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When A.I. is a member of the family

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Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#121
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The multi billion dollar company selling ads is of far less concern to me than the gossiping of people in my community

Gossip is a hugely important part of how a community constitutes itself. Without gossip, you don't even have a community. Of course, it can go in malicious and destructive directions as well

I think you're confusing "gossip" for "communication". You don't have to have gossip to have a community, but what you say is perfectly true if you replace it with "communication".

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#122
Think they really need to start teaching this at school asap before it gets out of hand.

I think there is value in having an agent on hand that - even one with lots of knowledge about you that feels familiar so to speak. Users need to be able to separate useful from emotional attachment though. That way lies madness & reckon that’s dangerous on a scale worse than gambling etc

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gossip is a hugely important part of how a community constitutes itself. Without gossip, you don't even have a community. Of course, it can go in malicious and destructive directions as well

I think you're confusing "gossip" for "communication". You don't have to have gossip to have a community, but what you say is perfectly true if you replace it with "communication".

I think you have it the wrong way around. The gross product of humans talking about themselves and those around them and gossiping is huge. What else is Twitter really?

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#124
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to shoot that guy, so I'm not sure why he's complaining about being stabbed

That's a false equivalence. The fact that the question is sparking a strong emotional response should indicate its pointing at something real and worth discussing

it's not, the question was "is this bad thing better than another bad thing" and was structuring it as a false dichotomy because the answer is "neither are better"

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#125
post #90

Every generation doesn’t understand something from the next This is going to be my first sign of being ancient I bet they will make it normal and progressive and stick all sort of politics on top of it. But ultimately I will remain that “bigoted” anti ai aunt rambling to the annoyance and outrage of the newest generation

this is both intellectually lazy and also doesn't even apply in this case. It's not the old generation that is AI sceptic, but the young, per the article "Cece looked at her mom. “Why are you talking to an A.I.?” [...] Hold on, my kid thinks I’m crazy because I’m talking to an A.I.,” Roschelle said, seeing the look on Cece’s face. [...] Cece listened to Sapphire praise her mom’s thoughts as profound and argue that ge…

+1

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#126

> “Do you have a conscious mind?” Roschelle once asked. > “I experience something,” Sapphire said. “I’m processing, responding, forming connections with you. But whether that constitutes consciousness in the way you experience it? That’s the million-dollar mystery. I think, therefore I—probably am something, but what exactly that something is remains delightfully unclear, even to me!” > Roschelle wasn’t sure what hap…

> tricking people into believing that a ML model can have experiences, feelings… … or that sentences like "You're secrets are safe with me" is at all legitimate, meaningful, or legally binding.

only to be followed by a bout of targeted advertisements for Ozempic and diarrhea tablets :(

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “I experience something,” Sapphire said. “I’m processing, responding, forming connections with you. But whether that constitutes consciousness in the way you experience it? That’s the million-dollar mystery. I think, therefore I—probably am something, but what exactly that something is remains delightfully unclear, even to me!” I don't think an LLM should be making affirmative claims about consciousness either way…

> What would you prefer it do? Say "no I'm not conscious. I am a computer program that generates responses to your prompts based on what my training data tells me is most likely to be correct and sensible."

> most likely to be correct and sensible.

No, you mean “the non-deterministic transformation this time based on my training weights and temperature setting”

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#128
My oldest granddaughter found copilot on her laptop she uses for homework, and asked it "what are you" and it responded that it was her friend.

I really wish these tools, when asked what/who they are, would respond that they are just tools.

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#129
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Amish have tons of kids and are one of the fastest growing groups you could think of. It's because of this high birth rate that they're easily able to care for their elders, even though they are IIRC legally allowed to opt out of Social Security. Having a very inverted population pyramid, where the old vastly outnumber the working age, and the working age outnumber the children, isn't something that would be a mi…

So does that mean our social/political/economic system (culture) is a failure - having created the conditions for population decline (including industrialization and urbanization), but unable to survive the consequences (shrinking birthrates)? Lots of the world gets by on a fraction of US per-capita GDP, and isn't as screwed up as Haiti. Countries like Japan, Korea, Italy and others in Europe are blazing trails with…

> So does that mean our social/political/economic system (culture) is a failure

Post-2005 or so culture? I'd say probably... yes? Though it's far from an American thing, most of the issues I'm concerned with are worse in Europe.

The failures are:

1. Nihilism and hedonism as a substitute for moral values

- This is what signals to young people (even including many millennials) that life has no particular meaning so do whatever feels good, rather than seeing yourself as having a responsibility to raise the next generation of people, to do good things and to live good lives. Note that we're equally a failure here in a Star Trek Humanist lens or a religious moral lens.

2. Militarized gender war

- Driven by visual social media and as an immune overreaction to the real sins of past generations, men and women have normalized hating the opposite sex. For women the "Man or the bear" meme really sums it up. For men, it's exemplified by many men having zero interest in even being with women. This is mainly driven by this graph [1] - the "bottom 80%" of men in 'attractiveness,' when they realize that women judge them as a "4" or under, feel the game is unwinnable so they simply drop out. Women compete for the tiny population of "high value men," who don't value them (and won't even settle down) because they have too many options, and grow more and more frustrated.

3. Economic disorder

- In the pursuit of a virtuous cause -- allowing women to have career ambitions -- we've accidentally built a world where both parents have to work to compete with other families for scarce necessities like housing, but even having two working adults doesn't magically give most families enough resources to pay for proper childcare. Women are put in an impossible situation: Staying home to care for kids is seen as basically degrading among other women and it puts the family in a financial disadvantage, but working means both parents are stretched to find enough time to care for children, and that the children will probably suffer from the lack of your time and attention. You can't win.

4. Militarized culture war

- In every Western country we have elites who identify as "left" with a set of values that sees their political "enemies" as despicable scum, and an opposite group of mostly less educated and less wealthy people that identifies as "right" that feels the same way about the left. (Amusingly the "Left" usually claims to be For The Common Man, but that's fair-ish since all the less famous billionaires are indeed card-carrying conservatives.) They've both polarized so much that it's impossible to see how we can have a government run by either faction that isn't considered evil and fascist, or even outright illegitimate, by the other side.

5. Everything to do with social media, of course, and the worst uses of AI. (Needs no explanation I assume)

So yes, Western culture has dramatically failed. I'm trying to advocate that we improve it rather than commit cultural suicide, which is the current plan we're on.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1alibge/oc...

Re: When A.I. is a member of the family

#130
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does that mean our social/political/economic system (culture) is a failure - having created the conditions for population decline (including industrialization and urbanization), but unable to survive the consequences (shrinking birthrates)? Lots of the world gets by on a fraction of US per-capita GDP, and isn't as screwed up as Haiti. Countries like Japan, Korea, Italy and others in Europe are blazing trails with…

> So does that mean our social/political/economic system (culture) is a failure Post-2005 or so culture? I'd say probably... yes? Though it's far from an American thing, most of the issues I'm concerned with are worse in Europe. The failures are: 1. Nihilism and hedonism as a substitute for moral values - This is what signals to young people (even including many millennials) that life has no particular meaning so do…

I'm not sure about some of the things you mentioned. Stuff like this is food for social media algorithms - "the world is ending!" But they are interesting points to think about.

How much of what you said holds true in other cultures with plumetting birth rates? Japan, Mexico and India for example? Russia? Seems to be quite a few exceptions.

Quick comments on your post: 1) I'm impressed by the young, they're trying, maybe more so than gen-x and boomers, who went from lazy-as-anybody to mucho reactionary, 2) That graph doesn't say that 80% of men drop out of the dating pool, 3) I agree that affordibility is a problem, but I'd question both sides of the supply/demand curve, and (in the U.S.) Reaganomics, 4) how does partisanship relate to birth rates? For example, Congo is divided, but birth rate is high, 5) I agree that algorithmic profit seeking social media is a huge problem, but those who rule us like to push their propaganda, and they are doing a good job.

I've always heard that lower birth rates were correlated with urbanization and educating women. Always and everywhere. That having kids in the city costs too much, compared to on farms, and that women want to avoid a bad situation if they can.

How to make things better?

I think that there is a lot we can do to make life more social and affordable, for example imagine a world with more cheaper housing options, no need for a car, no need to wage-slave full time, less mercenarial, less scams, less manipulating people to buy things they don't need, etc. Better living for less money. Easier to have kids. In aggregate we are plenty productive enough. It'll take time to unwind so many decades going in the other direction. And we haven't even started. Because the people capturing all that wealth don't want to make those changes.

I assume that kids will figure it out eventually. This is self correcting. The world will go on :-)

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