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Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

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Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#121

Do we really have to reapply every 2 hours?

It depends what sunscreen you use: mineral vs chemical font behave the same, on how much you used, on what you're doing.

Chemical ones go bad with exposure to sun, mineral ones not as much, but either way they can both be rubbed off the skin

Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#122
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correction. More sun exposure is CORRELATED with being less likely do die. I don't think there's a single causal connection in this article.

> Sure enough, when he exposed volunteers to the equivalent of 30 minutes of summer sunlight without sunscreen, their nitric oxide levels went up and their blood pressure went down. That is a causal connection.

Sorry for challenging here, I don’t remember the actual study being linked, and it seems I’m now paywalled and can’t check myself: did he do the same experiment with folks wearing sunscreen? Did he control for relaxation effects? I’d expect both blood pressure to go down and nitric oxide to go up as folks relax, e.g. in a sunny garden or on a tanning bed.

Not sure the “causal connection” is fully established.

Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seed oil is healthier than milk fat? Going to need some framing definitions, here...

I had to look up the concept of a framing definition so I might have gotten these wrong but I would equivalently state: 1. Modern margarine is healthier than butter. 2. Seed oils are generally healthier than animal fats. 3. PUFAs are healthier than saturated fats. 4. In this case the industrial processed spread is healthier than the more natural less-processed spread.

PUFA vs saturated fats come with a lot of caveats. It's generally good advice to avoid saturated fats, but there are only certain conditions in which saturated fats are unhealthy and we don't fully understand those conditions yet. Saturated fats from dairy is even more complicated. It's may not be as bad as other saturated fats.

Recently there are very good studies tracking heart disease progression with extreme accuracy and it is very clear that you can eat high amount of saturated fat for a very long time with zero CVD progression. The mechanism depends on other factors.

Still, personally I think it's good advice to reduce saturated fat until we understand these mechanisms better. Eventually though, I suspect we will find other interventions that eliminate the CVD impacts of saturated fats.

I gotta imagine that margarine with EVO is a clear winner, EVO has several great benefits. Not saying processed seed oils are bad.. I'm not in that camp. Evidence for that idea seems very flimsy.

Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#124
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to look up the concept of a framing definition so I might have gotten these wrong but I would equivalently state: 1. Modern margarine is healthier than butter. 2. Seed oils are generally healthier than animal fats. 3. PUFAs are healthier than saturated fats. 4. In this case the industrial processed spread is healthier than the more natural less-processed spread.

PUFA vs saturated fats come with a lot of caveats. It's generally good advice to avoid saturated fats, but there are only certain conditions in which saturated fats are unhealthy and we don't fully understand those conditions yet. Saturated fats from dairy is even more complicated. It's may not be as bad as other saturated fats. Recently there are very good studies tracking heart disease progression with extreme accu…

By all means please caveat away! This is HN after all. I was torn between pithyness and qualifying those statements myself. Obviously there's a lot of interesting variation that's not being captured by population means or the limited subgroups we've studied and I'm excited for us to learn more.

In the meantime, I use butter because it's tastier and for me that's worth it. I don't understand why that's not enough for some people.

Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#125
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article cites another study by Richard Weller: > Sure enough, when he exposed volunteers to the equivalent of 30 minutes of summer sunlight without sunscreen, their nitric oxide levels went up and their blood pressure went down. I can't find information on the methods for this particular study. So I'm curious if he just set up UV lights on a timer and sat his subjects under them. That's something anyone can set u…

> turn the timer switch on for 30 minutes of a properly calibrated and positioned low-dose UV light (and out of direct line of sight to anyone not under it) Gosh. Or just go outside! It has the added benefit of being somewhat enjoyable.

Or gosh, just read my comment! I said in somewhat gloomy places. Sometimes people are working when the 10 minutes of sunlight comes out. Often that's not enough time to get down the elevator and get outside before the sun hides behinds the clouds again, even if you can take the daytime break.

Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#127
post #94

I made a small little web app calculator for myself and my family to figure out how long we could stay outside without needing sunscreen based on current UV and skin type. I use it daily in the summer and a couple thousand people use it every month also. You can check it out at https://sunburntimer.com . It's also free and open source software, github link in footer.

This is a clever idea. Unfortunately, UV exposure is cumulative. So your skin is still getting damaged by the UV rays even if you're not getting burnt.

So how many Joules can you safely sustain in say, a month, or a lifetime ?

Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often embarrass my daughter when she has some new friend over. If the topic comes up, I give a demonstration. I'm 62 and I've never tried to get a tan and work indoors, and I haven't had a serious sunburn in close to 40 years. On the other hand, I lived spent the last 20 years in Austin, TX. I mow the yard and I ride a bike and in the summer months I put on sunblock before doing the bike rides an sometimes mowing.…

the culprit is not the sun-- but overdoing it. If you overdrink water, it is fatal, too. The sun is responsible for benefiting over 200 processes in the body. And you don't need to be out in the sun all day to get the benefits (if your job does not demand it).

It's far harder to overdrink water than it is to overstay in the sun.

Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#129
post #4

tl;dr you probably should get a few minutes of sunlight daily on your unexposed skin without sunscreen for the "health gains" (you can also wear clothes to block sun instead of sunscreen so you don't necessarily need sunscreen at all)

You still need it at least on your face and hands. A hat won't completely protect against UV, and you're probably not going to wear gloves in the summer.

Re: Is sunscreen the new margarine? (2019)

#130
post #53

Wow, it feels like nobody read the article. Findings: - high blood pressure leads to a lot of deaths - people that spend more time in the sun have lower blood pressure - skin cancer is caused by sun exposure, but it kills far, far less people than high blood pressure - people that spend more time in the sun have a lower rate of dying from skin cancer than people who spend less time in the sun! Summary: more sun expos…

You seem to be missing what part of that implies "spending time in the sun with sunscreen is risky". Wearing sunscreen doesn't magically make you not exposed at all to the sun. I also think you're assuming it's easy to calibrate your exposure to gradually ramp it up, when I suspect it would probably vary quite a bit by person; some people burn extremely quickly in the sun. Some people who are relatively pale will often need to apply sunscreen hourly to avoid burning.
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