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Thomann takes legal action against Fender

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Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#121

Post by queenkjuul »

This one really bothers me:

Leo Fender himself declined to copyright the Strat body

Leo Fender himself sold "Strat clones" of the exact variety Fender Corp is trying to ban, after the sold the Fender name. I own one.

So Fender Corp is trying to retroactively assert that Leo Fender stole his own design from Fender Corp in 1979, they didn't have any issue for 47 years, but now because a Chinese company didn't show up in German court, they have eternal license to the design Leo Fender explicitly chose not to sell them.

Fuck Fender. My Jazz Bass is still my favorite instrument, I've had it 20 years and played hundreds of gigs, but I guess I'm never buying another

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#122

Post by queenkjuul »

al_borland wrote: post #11
vintermann wrote: post #7

Apparently Fender got bought up by a private equity fund, Servco Pacific Capital. Who would have guessed.

Apparently this started back in 1985. > In 1985, Bill Schultz and a group of investors—including company employees and external companies like Servco Pacific Capitol—purchased Fender from CBS for $12.5 million and renamed it "Fender Musical Instruments Corporation" (FMIC). > Ownership changed in December 2001, when private equity firm Weston Presidio bought a controlling stake in Fender for $57.8 million. > Longtime…

Schulz and co were a big step up from CBS, genuinely. Schulz was associated with the original company, not a random PE firm.

It's the 2000-2020 exchanges that were detrimental

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#123

Post by queenkjuul »

matchagaucho wrote: post #54
normaler wrote: post #21

I used to work for a Thomann competitor "Musicstore" in ~2005. The server was some tower server in a back office with a note reminding everyone not to turn it off. With Thoman being hugged to death right now I would like to think of there being a similar situation (its probably fine, but it made me feel nostalgic).

Similar work experience, I was with a CBS-owned music company that had a CNC machine with some old Fender Telecaster and Stratocaster body templates. The hardware manager was cool and would let employees turn slabs of wood into Tele- and Strat-style bodies after hours. When the Fender/German court ruling came down, my first thought was: Fender has had roughly 70 years with the Stratocaster design, and the broader ind…

Leo himself did not copyright the design and himself sold "clones" after selling the Fender brand

It's never belonged to Fender Corp

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#124

Post by queenkjuul »

codedokode wrote: post #47
balfirevic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that doesn't affect the sound That would be the whole shape.

I do not think the exact shape has any influence, especially potentiometer or audio jack placement.

It influences playability, which is functionality. Fender's marketing advertised the shape as a functional feature: body carve for easier playing standing up, double cut for easier access to higher frets

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#125

Post by d1sxeyes »

dofm wrote: post #16

I still think this whole Fender-suing-everyone thing will end up with Thomann owning them either partially or completely. But the weird German lawsuit was always about the fact that some private equity suits (or bad Hawaiian shirts, it seems) are upset that Thomann (and others) sell the PRS Silver Sky, which as they have probably deduced from the reverb.com data they now own, likely outsells equivalent Fender models…

Thomann own an extremely popular brand, Harley Benton, which (obviously) sells S-types.

I think it’s more likely that this is about the ST series than about the Silver Sky.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#126

Post by dofm »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #125
dofm wrote: post #16

I still think this whole Fender-suing-everyone thing will end up with Thomann owning them either partially or completely. But the weird German lawsuit was always about the fact that some private equity suits (or bad Hawaiian shirts, it seems) are upset that Thomann (and others) sell the PRS Silver Sky, which as they have probably deduced from the reverb.com data they now own, likely outsells equivalent Fender models…

Thomann own an extremely popular brand, Harley Benton, which (obviously) sells S-types. I think it’s more likely that this is about the ST series than about the Silver Sky.

The new CEO of Fender is from the luxury goods world.

Each Silver Sky model (SE or non) outsells the equivalent Stratocaster model, from what I understand, by a noticeable margin, which Servco will now know with clarity, because they have sales data from reverb (which they acquired one month before they took out this lawsuit).

It is a naïve take, but have a look at what Fender's CEO looks like, how he dresses and carries himself, and tell me that a big part of this isn't injured pride that John Mayer went to PRS.

I think if this was really about the cheap body guitars — a nearly zero-margin market for decades — they wouldn't have sent a C&D to LsL or PRS, because that was always going to invite trouble.

Harley Benton is a problem at some small level and I am sure Fender will suggest it is, but Fender have had a "buy the real thing" type of marketing campaign for both Fender and Squier since the 90s at least.

The 2009 lawsuit made this clear; it detailed all Fender's "buy original" marketing campaigns as a way of pointing out that Fender has never policed the right to make the S-type body shape.

Squier competes pretty adequately with Harley Benton and all the other cheap brands; at that price, being "Fender's budget brand" has prudence associated with it.

What has changed is that Fender are losing out at the top end to high-end luthiers who give a shit, and PRS. And now they know exactly how badly. This lawsuit will feature a lot of data from reverb.com, I suspect.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#127

Post by sparkling »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #125
dofm wrote: post #16

I still think this whole Fender-suing-everyone thing will end up with Thomann owning them either partially or completely. But the weird German lawsuit was always about the fact that some private equity suits (or bad Hawaiian shirts, it seems) are upset that Thomann (and others) sell the PRS Silver Sky, which as they have probably deduced from the reverb.com data they now own, likely outsells equivalent Fender models…

Thomann own an extremely popular brand, Harley Benton, which (obviously) sells S-types. I think it’s more likely that this is about the ST series than about the Silver Sky.

Harley Benton is "extremly popular"? I don't think so and the upper price ceiling for HB seems to be at ~400-500 USD right now. Decent hardware for anyone just starting out with their first instrument, sure, but i never heard of anyone buying a HB as a second or third guitar.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#128

Post by dofm »

codedokode wrote: post #80
mirsadm wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm looking at buying one now and as far as I can tell Fender seems to make shoddy quality instruments these days. I see a lot of recommendations for PRS and others.

I wish there was some kind of audio comparison.

It would just end up a comparison of the pickups, because to a first approximation that's the only thing that matters.

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#129

Post by omnimus »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #118
omnimus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sure biggest european music ecommerce store runs on tower server in a back office.

Happens all the time.

No it doesn't? We are not in 1998.

I always read around here how european server companies are incompetent so there is no european infrastructure so european companies have to host everything on AWS. But this biggest european music store apparently powers their huge store from some server in the back office?

Which is it?

Re: Thomann takes legal action against Fender

#130

Post by lambdaone »

vondur wrote: post #89
TrackerFF wrote: post #88

The problem is that after their original patent expired, they sat on their hands for too long. By the time they tried to trademark in 2008/2009, their bodies were considered generic in the US. Gibson, on the other hand, did what Fender should have done and applied for trademark (for their Les Paul body) back in the late 80s. Now other brands are eating their lunch, and Fender is seemingly trying a last hail marry to…

"My guess is that if they manage to get a positive ruling in Europe, they'll somehow try to use that as case for US courts." That's exactly what they have done, they sued a Chinese company that was making knock-off Strat copies and selling them in Germany. Fender sued them, the Chinese company was a no show and Fender took that as a win to go after PRS who is selling a John Mayer Strat style guitar.

A win that, as I understand it, did not actually set a precedent and is thus of no actual legal use to them.
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