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Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

reuters.com

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Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#121

Post by pydry »

SanjayMehta wrote: post #30
cognitiveinline wrote: post #3

Maybe to spark curious conversation, when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these? It does seem like UN is unable to really make a dent here.

The UN is stuck in 1945. The UNSC needs to throw out the UK, France, and bring in Brazil, India, South Africa and Germany. And this veto nonsense needs to go away.

the vetoes are pretty much the sole differentiator between the UN and the league of nations, which failed.

in theory its better if you don't give veto power to great powers because they'll abuse it. in practice it's what keeps the fragile system that prevents WW3 from total collapse, as happened with the league of nations.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#122

Post by HDThoreaun »

saturn8601 wrote: post #96
cognitiveinline wrote: post #3

Maybe to spark curious conversation, when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these? It does seem like UN is unable to really make a dent here.

We kinda went through this with South Africa. The only thing saving Israel is the US protection and the nukes. US protection can change. Nukes are harder. South Africa successfully utilized "strategic ambiguity". They never explicitly acknowledged they had the weapons, while making sure world leaders knew they were a credible threat. during South Africa's border wars (specifically against the Cubans in Angola), there…

Might really is doing some heavy lifting here. If the UN turns on Israel and they become sanctioned by the west the most likely outcome is that Israel turns to China. China needs stabilizing forces in the Middle East because of their lack of domestic fossil fuels. They also see similarities between the Gaza situation and Taiwan. The Israelis are fiercely aggressive on security issues. They will not give up on that because of sanctions I think. What US backing is really doing is mostly just making it cheaper for Israel to defend itself so that the Israelis feel less pressure to be aggressive with making buffer zones. Without the US funding the iron dome we would see a real genocide in Gaza.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#123

Post by asdff »

saturn8601 wrote: post #96
cognitiveinline wrote: post #3

Maybe to spark curious conversation, when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these? It does seem like UN is unable to really make a dent here.

We kinda went through this with South Africa. The only thing saving Israel is the US protection and the nukes. US protection can change. Nukes are harder. South Africa successfully utilized "strategic ambiguity". They never explicitly acknowledged they had the weapons, while making sure world leaders knew they were a credible threat. during South Africa's border wars (specifically against the Cubans in Angola), there…

It is funny how much hand wringing is done with nuclear weapons. like they are this big line in the sand when really the same result happens with or without them. Gaza looks as wrecked as Hiroshima or Dresden. Doesn't matter it seems in terms of the function. I guess the bigger risk is really the implication vs the action. It is like Kayfabe for the political class.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#124

Post by throw310822 »

Qem wrote: post #101
HeavyStorm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the latest Gaza war taught us anything, is that UN is powerless. And, unfortunately, it is the highest entity that could apply leverage here, so... Not much we can do. In the long term I hope other nations realize they are very vulnerable and begin to invest more in defense, but that escalation can have other downsides.

> highest entity that could apply leverage What is the lowest entity that can apply leverage? Regardless of what US or UN does or doesn't, you can start boycotting today.

Not completely true, if you're in the US there are laws to punish boycott of Israel.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#125

Post by notnaut »

asdff wrote: post #123
saturn8601 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We kinda went through this with South Africa. The only thing saving Israel is the US protection and the nukes. US protection can change. Nukes are harder. South Africa successfully utilized "strategic ambiguity". They never explicitly acknowledged they had the weapons, while making sure world leaders knew they were a credible threat. during South Africa's border wars (specifically against the Cubans in Angola), there…

It is funny how much hand wringing is done with nuclear weapons. like they are this big line in the sand when really the same result happens with or without them. Gaza looks as wrecked as Hiroshima or Dresden. Doesn't matter it seems in terms of the function. I guess the bigger risk is really the implication vs the action. It is like Kayfabe for the political class.

I know traditional munitions aren’t exactly “clean” but isn’t nuclear fallout still a unique concern?

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#126

Post by throw310822 »

xg15 wrote: post #118
the_origami_fox wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* * *

Yes, and that seems to be the rationale of western politicians as well, essentially, "we have to protect Israel to protect the Jewish people, without it, the Holocaust would risk repeating" That makes sense as a "subjective experience" (if there is something like the subjective experience of a people), but it fails the reality check for me. Yes, Israel is the center of Jewish life today (New York coming next apparent…

> Neither do their neighbors, true

Their neighbours don't really have an option though. Stopping all resistance will not stop the settlers from harassing and chasing away the natives, and it will not force Israel to respect any border (which they took care of not even declaring). If anything, Palestinian resistance is functional to the progress of the occupation, so, if things get too quiet, a couple of killings or demolished homes keep the situation dynamic enough.

Unless you're counting on the moral authority of the Western nations that stayed silent or even financed and armed Israel while it was starving a population under blockade and bombings, murdering tens of thousands of civilians, killing hundreds of journalists, bombing hospitals and universities. Maybe they would say something if Israel killed and conquered a population that absolutely refuses to react. What do you think?

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#127

Post by Melonai »

tdiff wrote: post #97
mentalgear wrote: post #16

This is really sickening - if North Korea or any other less connected country did this, you would quickly see their national (tech) companies being sanctioned by the west. I never understood how a country like Israel, given the history of its own tribe, can themselves become so gruesome and have a hugely state-supported private spy-tech sector that supports the worst autocrates in the world as long as the money flows…

First thing coming into mind is the number of companies and individuals blocking Russians in the beginning of the war before any sanctions out of virtue signalling.

I felt that quite badly at the start of that war, multiple accounts closed, including my brokerage account, bank account rejected, and a flood of emails asking me to divulge loads of documentation to get them to consider giving them back to me!

I don't actually live in Russia, if I did, it would be even worse.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#128

Post by asdff »

notnaut wrote: post #125
asdff wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is funny how much hand wringing is done with nuclear weapons. like they are this big line in the sand when really the same result happens with or without them. Gaza looks as wrecked as Hiroshima or Dresden. Doesn't matter it seems in terms of the function. I guess the bigger risk is really the implication vs the action. It is like Kayfabe for the political class.

I know traditional munitions aren’t exactly “clean” but isn’t nuclear fallout still a unique concern?

No one in power meaningfully cares about environmental destruction.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#129

Post by xg15 »

throw478322 wrote: post #107
xg15 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if it used to be the case with South Africa too, but I'm baffled how much ideological support Israel still has, in various population groups. There are at least two religious groups who seem to view it as integral part of a divine plan that trumps all other considerations. ("mainstream" Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians) Then there various secular narratives around the Jewish homeland, the rebirth (an…

You are missing the very massive religious and ideological groups who are on the other side and see in the destruction of Israel a divine plan or a fulfilment of some secular ideal. This blinkered view will reasonably leave you baffled and with a distorted world model, and a perception that people are stupid when they are actually seeing the bigger picture.

No question those exist, but this ignores basic human psychology: If my whole family was wiped out in an airstrike, and then I have a whole population saying "yup, that's exactly how things should be!", of course I would start to hate them.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#130

Post by ebbi »

spwa4 wrote: post #83
HeavyStorm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the latest Gaza war taught us anything, is that UN is powerless. And, unfortunately, it is the highest entity that could apply leverage here, so... Not much we can do. In the long term I hope other nations realize they are very vulnerable and begin to invest more in defense, but that escalation can have other downsides.

[flagged]

"Every attack has to end with occupation, destruction and expulsion." - David Ben-Gurion.

Pretty sure he died well before Oct 7.

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