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Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

reuters.com

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Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#121

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #111
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I already know linear algebra. If it’s a new branch of mathematics, this is a terrible way to learn. Again, the research points almost exclusively in one direction when it comes to learning and cognition around AI. You’ll solve more problems more quickly but wind up learning and thinking less.

Honestly, what do you think a teacher does that an llm can't? If you want to learn you absolutely can ask an llm how to _solve_ x and explain the steps and why. My leaving out the word solve seems to have led some of you astray, I apologize. Again the problem is you have the option to solve your problem and move on without understanding it. That does not mean you can not use the tool to understand the problem and how…

> what do you think a teacher does that an llm can't?

I don’t know! It’s an interesting question. All we know is it does.

> That does not mean you can not use the tool to understand the problem and how to _solve_ it

It doesn’t. But we have no evidence it can.

We have lots of evidence of people thinking they’ve learned something, taking a benchmarking test, and being found wholly deficient compared to folks who worked through a textbook, went to a class or even solved problems off YouTube videos or instructional websites.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#122

Post by bebe83939 »

bborud wrote: post #96
bebe83939 wrote: post #89

Great, yet another "no child and no teacher left behind!" I was gifted kid, bored to death at basic school. I was reading books under the table, and was lucky to have tolerant teacher. Total ban would just push me to misbehaving and disrupting the class. AI is amazing tool for learning, if Norway can not harness it, there is something deeply wrong with the educational system. Perhaps teachers unions? Norway has a big…

So I take it you have some expertise in teaching? At what level? K-12? Middle school? What, in your professional opinion as an educator, should schools do about AI in schools?

I would allow schooling in other languages in primary schools in Norway. Basic education is a human right, and it is not right to force kids out of their mother tongue. Insisting on some obscure language is just misplaced nationalism!

AI could help with that.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#123

Post by JumpCrisscross »

joe_mamba wrote: post #120
simonw wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8 A sizable portion of the US adult population effectively can't read, write and comprehend text. https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp for 2023: > Between 2017 and 2023, there were increases in the percentages of adults performing at the lowest proficiency level (Level 1 or below) in both literacy and numeracy: in literacy this percentage increased…

>A sizable portion of the US adult population effectively can't read, write and comprehend text. Yes and AI isn't to blame for that as adults predate AI. It's the governments, schools, teachers, parents, teacher's unios, who taught them(or more accurately didn't teach them) and graduated them out of school anyway regardless just so they don't look bad in statistics. Sorry but if you graduate people out of high school…

Nobody is blaming AI. The point is we don’t have the luxury of throwing nonsense at our kids when they’re illiterate. Particularly not nonsense where all the evidence shows it harms on average more than it helps.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#124

Post by bebe83939 »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #100
irishcoffee wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8. I don’t even like LLMs and I’m against this mess. Imagine having regulations rolled out when we were 8 saying “you can’t use the internet!” And I was running my own websites by 10 years old. Let’s stop pretending this tech is as interesting as we wish it was. If we want to ban models in school, ban laptops/chromebooks with internet. I don’t see the difference at this po…

From what I can tell the average school at best can aspire to teach kids how to work and how to socialize. That's it. I'd personally be very happy with computers mostly going away from school too. Most actual learning and exploring will hopefully happen at home.

Many kids in Norwegian schools do not speak Norwegian or English. Kids need "computers" just to translate what other kid is saying.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#125

Post by simonw »

joe_mamba wrote: post #120
simonw wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8 A sizable portion of the US adult population effectively can't read, write and comprehend text. https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp for 2023: > Between 2017 and 2023, there were increases in the percentages of adults performing at the lowest proficiency level (Level 1 or below) in both literacy and numeracy: in literacy this percentage increased…

>A sizable portion of the US adult population effectively can't read, write and comprehend text. Yes and AI isn't to blame for that as adults predate AI. It's the governments, schools, teachers, parents, teacher's unios, who taught them(or more accurately didn't teach them) and graduated them out of school anyway regardless just so they don't look bad in statistics. Sorry but if you graduate people out of high school…

Right, AI isn't to blame for that, but cell phones might be? The bad number increased from 19 to 28 percent between 2017 and 2023.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#126

Post by logickkk1 »

baq wrote: post #14

AI used to write homework should be banned. AI in 1:1 tutor mode with proper hardware (live scanning pen and paper), harness and guardrails should be wildly successful (in terms of education outcomes) especially in elementary school.

fwiw, Alpha School is the supervised version. the New York campus is $65k/yr and not legally a school.

private school money with homeschool paperwork and an app doing the teaching.

https://www.wired.com/story/alpha-schools-new-york-city-camp...

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#127

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #107
skydhash wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to explain a simple linear algebra problem, and if you don't understand it, ask about what part you don't understand. The goal is not to understand a linear algebra problem. The goal is to learn how to solve it using lessons and techniques taught beforehand. Aka not to get a fish, but learning how to fish.

I'm sorry the wording of my post didn't match what you wanted. Type in "Explain how to solve a simple linear algebra problem" into the AI of your choice instead.

> Type in "Explain how to solve a simple linear algebra problem" into the AI of your choice instead

I’m more interested in seeing how someone who teaches themselves with this approach scores on a standardized exam of linear-algebra competence.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#128

Post by watwut »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #100
irishcoffee wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8. I don’t even like LLMs and I’m against this mess. Imagine having regulations rolled out when we were 8 saying “you can’t use the internet!” And I was running my own websites by 10 years old. Let’s stop pretending this tech is as interesting as we wish it was. If we want to ban models in school, ban laptops/chromebooks with internet. I don’t see the difference at this po…

From what I can tell the average school at best can aspire to teach kids how to work and how to socialize. That's it. I'd personally be very happy with computers mostly going away from school too. Most actual learning and exploring will hopefully happen at home.

This is really not true. Kids do actually learn a lot in school - includong weak students. And you actually see huge difference between places with and without schools.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#129

Post by JumpCrisscross »

FloorEgg wrote: post #95
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, if the politician thinks this is the clarity of language necessary to send the message, I think that’s fine. Studying this and that can come later. It’s not like anyone is banning that research.

And I guess that's a big part of my frustration. I don't know what the politician actually said. I don't see any link to the/an official statement in the article. I'm just an old man shaking fist at clouds. I'm sitting on a mountain of evidence (n=44,000) that used in a very specific way and context AI accelerates and improves lasting learning outcomes. Th3 data is new, but the science that explains it actually goes…

> sitting on a mountain of evidence (n=44,000) that used in a very specific way and context AI accelerates and improves lasting learning outcomes

Can you point to it?

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#130

Post by simonw »

rootusrootus wrote: post #105
simonw wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8 A sizable portion of the US adult population effectively can't read, write and comprehend text. https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp for 2023: > Between 2017 and 2023, there were increases in the percentages of adults performing at the lowest proficiency level (Level 1 or below) in both literacy and numeracy: in literacy this percentage increased…

[flagged]

In this case it's the US that's shitting on the US. These numbers don't compare the US with other countries, they compare the US in 2023 with the US in 2017. And the numbers are from the US government National Center for Education Statistics.
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