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Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

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Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not even close. Those fares don't cover the whole operation of the train system, but they actually go a long way to covering a very large chunk of it. The cost of operating the fare system is a rounding error relative to the sums of money talked about here.

ok, but hear me out let's say the fare system costs $1 million to operate and maintain and let's say the fare system collects $10 million in fares couldn't you just collect $10 million in additional taxes, just add a "railway fare" line item, and save everyone the $1 million?

> just collect xxx in additional taxes

That's very easy to say, and very unpopular to actually do. People on the country side would for example not feel it's fair for them to pay for the much more complicated public transport system in the city, when they get one train going by their village every few hours for it.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#122
post #85
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved here from The Netherlands in 2004, and have now lived in Florida, California, and Mississippi and stayed for prolonged periods in many US cities for my job. I wouldn’t feel safe riding a bicycle anywhere here considering the speed of traffic, the size of the vehicles, and lack of dedicated biking infrastructure. It’s a completely different world when you share the road with angry F150 drivers blasting past yo…

And drivers who themselves would never ride a bike. They see you as a nuisance.

We Dutch just hate both. If I'm on bike I hate all car drivers. If I'm in car I hate all bicycle drivers.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a resident of the UK, and reasonably well off, I can definitely attest that the price definitely changes my usage. I will always get the slow 2 hour train into London rather than the faster 1.25 hour train because it's 1/2 to 1/3 the price. The peak hours slow train is approximately double the price, the peak hours fast train is about triple the price compared to off peak. The local train to the next city (20 mile…

> I will always get the slow 2 hour train into London rather than the faster 1.25 hour train because it's 1/2 to 1/3 the price. The peak hours slow train is approximately double the price, the peak hours fast train is about triple the price compared to off peak. So you still take the train? Fast trains into London (which are indeed very expensive, I won't dare state the price not to shock our European friends) are co…

Yeah. Yesterday I had to go in for a meeting with my client. I went "off peak" which meant not getting there before 10am. The alternative is "super off peak" which is only for trains arriving after 1pm. That "off peak" was already double the price of "super off peak" and the train wasn't close to being empty, but there were spare seats. If I'd needed to get there for a 9am meeting, it'd have been about double the price again.

If I compare this to China (just because I travel on the trains there quite a lot whenever I visit), they have a simple price structure - it's all per kilometre (and so weirdly, the quickest trains are often slightly cheaper as they've gone a shorter route), and have 4 set prices - first class (very comfortable, lots of room), VIP (even more space and only the front 8 seats of the train), second class (about the same standard as UK trains) and standing. Occasionally there's also a business class seat too.

An example of the prices, I just checked the app online. For Shenzhen to Guangzhou (136km), the next train is a 90 minute journey. The price of the standing seat and the second class are the same, first class is 25% higher, VIP seat is first class plus 50%, business seat is VIP plus 100%. If you pay for a seat, you get allocated seating and nobody would dream of sitting in your seat and not moving. The base price in this example is second class at about £8 for the journey, the most expensive ticket is about £28.

There is a bullet train half an hour later that takes 30 minutes for the same journey, because it goes a more direct route, it's cheaper and the second class ticket is under £5. This also has sleeping cabins (not useful on this route as it's between 2nd and 3rd stations on a very long journey) which is about £24.

Standing tickets used to be priced at a discount, but they seem to be the same as the second class tickets nowadays. I guess this discourages people from getting them (there are over 10 trains per hour for this route, so you'd just pick a different train) but it means your expectations about sitting or standing are made up front when buying the ticket and if you absolutely have to get on the train and don't mind standing, you can. But most people would wait for the next train.

Obviously, the peak time trains can sell out quickly, so people book earlier or later as required for a train with availability. Normally, tickets go on sale exactly 2 weeks early, but even on the day there's usually seating availability on one of those "local" services (like this one that's just under 100 miles) within the hour, and for the long distance ones there's usually some availability same day, maybe just at an inconvenient time. But the prices are the same whenever travel, so it's about choosing a ticket that works right for you.

Also, because the prices of all the tickets are the same, even though you have pre-booked tickets, there's more flexibility. Every ticket can be changed for free once before you travel, so if you get to the station early and there are seats available on the train you want, you can cancel yours and get those seats without penalty. Even more amazingly, if you miss your train, you can still cancel it and rebook a later train with only a 20% penalty, as long as you do it within 24 hours of your scheduled departure.

Yes, Chinese trains are subsidised, but it's a wonderful service. Delays do happen, but nowhere near as bad as the UK, on a 4-5 hour journey over 1000+ kilometers I've sometimes been a few minutes late.

Mind you, aviation in China is also amazing. I remember deciding one day while travelling to bail on a city because the weather forecast was another week of rain. I got a ticket for a 1500 km flight (2.5 hours) the day before the flight for £100, which is comparable to the cost of a train but about twice as fast (I think it would have been 7 hours). The airlines aren't subsidised, but these do sell out around busy periods like public holidays and the prices can balloon at those times.

But anyway, the elasticity in China is done on seat availability, not pricing. If a train is full, you book another one, so if a specific time is important to you, you book further in advance. But whenever you book, if you have a ticket, at least it's going to be a pleasant journey and reasonably priced. Sometimes if a train is unexpectedly sold out, about an hour or two before departure they'll add an extra carriage or two to increase capacity, and again this tickets are priced at the standard price.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#124
post #122
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And drivers who themselves would never ride a bike. They see you as a nuisance.

We Dutch just hate both. If I'm on bike I hate all car drivers. If I'm in car I hate all bicycle drivers.

That is a cute sentiment, because I imagine it pales in comparison to the loathing these groups feel towards each other in North America.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#125
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bike to all of those. Only work is typically so far away that you need to drive, the rest exists in every suburb and is in bike distance.

Absolutely not in every suburb. I used to live in a suburb in Sacramento and just walking to the closest grocery store was over an hour

I said bike distance not walk distance. Typically bike speeds are about four times faster than walking speed so your hour walk is fifteen minutes.

I don't know Sacramento, but if it is as hilly as San Francisco you want an ebike which makes the hills level and is even faster.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#126
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HSR in France, Italy, Spain can be very cheap. Also, they have generous discounts for 'young people' (up to 30 I think) and 60+. Living in NL, I have fond memories of the kind of travel enabled by Ouigo when I lived in FR.

Another reason is that these routes operate an airfare model where all tickets are for a specific seat on a specific service, with increasing prices as the seats sell out. It allows for more efficient train loading, with the downside that you can't turn up to the station and assume you can take the next train.

HSR is more towards airfare than metro-like train services though. The latter which is basically the Dutch rail situation: it's more of a national metro service than a method for voyaging. The fact that 95% of all travels are commuters underlines this.

Now I know some commute on the TGV, but the airfare model works really well for a lot of people, and I think it makes sense for longer journeys. Alas, the Netherlands doesn't have any (national) long journeys.

That said, Dutch rail has a discount system in off-hours now, where you can get sizeable good discounts if you book a few days in advance. You get a ticked valid not for a specific train, but a 4-6 hour timeslot.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#127

What I don't understand about initiatives like this is... why bother charging at all? wouldn't the system be more efficient without a fare process? at that point you don't have to maintain an entire money handling system.

It would be more efficient for travelers, but not really from a systems point of view. The Netherlands is densely populated and its railways are amond the busiest in Europe. If twice as many people took the train it would be impossible to have enough trains running. Also, a money handling system functions as a gatekeeper. With some regularity there are stories in the media of people misbehaving on public transport. If everybody has the right to board it's more difficult to keep those people out.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a resident of the UK, and reasonably well off, I can definitely attest that the price definitely changes my usage. I will always get the slow 2 hour train into London rather than the faster 1.25 hour train because it's 1/2 to 1/3 the price. The peak hours slow train is approximately double the price, the peak hours fast train is about triple the price compared to off peak. The local train to the next city (20 mile…

> I will always get the slow 2 hour train into London rather than the faster 1.25 hour train because it's 1/2 to 1/3 the price. The peak hours slow train is approximately double the price, the peak hours fast train is about triple the price compared to off peak. So you still take the train? Fast trains into London (which are indeed very expensive, I won't dare state the price not to shock our European friends) are co…

I think seeing it as a market introduces the kind of biases and distortions that make the British system so incredibly expensive, and now also unreliable.

This is not the market for some fruit or some generic consumer good, with competition at all levels and a very flexible incentive structure that will move resources around to make the product as good and as cheap as possible, creating even different grades where demand justifies it.

This is more a piece-wise single provider structure that only has incentives to extract as much money as possible from the user, and substitute services are also pushed up indiscriminately by the government/regulators hierarchy, that sees them as a politically manageable way to fund massive pressure groups.

The NHS works under similar incentives and is also way out of hand by now.

Internally, the incentive to improve processes and infrastructure is much diminished by the fact that money isn't allocated on value or even perceived value, but established budgets that actually get locally lost if they are not spent, so oftentimes spending more for the same is better. Any improvement or extra budget allocation is a power struggle between localities and political pressure groups.

Trying to introduce competition has also been a massive failure. You have companies outsourcing as much of the maintenance as possible to the infrastructure regulator, squatting lesser profitable lines with skeleton-crew service, and actively impeding the entry of other operators.

It's not a matter of subsidies, sweet-spot for prices and passenger capacity. It's much deeper than that.

The Dutch system is primarily public and primarily operated by NS which is a public operator. The Japanese system is primarily private and operated by private companies, and the regulator has a tight control over it. The British system is hard to even categorise. It's a flailing mish-mash of public/private operation that goes back and forth and that is incompetently regulated.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#129
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will always get the slow 2 hour train into London rather than the faster 1.25 hour train because it's 1/2 to 1/3 the price. The peak hours slow train is approximately double the price, the peak hours fast train is about triple the price compared to off peak. So you still take the train? Fast trains into London (which are indeed very expensive, I won't dare state the price not to shock our European friends) are co…

I think seeing it as a market introduces the kind of biases and distortions that make the British system so incredibly expensive, and now also unreliable. This is not the market for some fruit or some generic consumer good, with competition at all levels and a very flexible incentive structure that will move resources around to make the product as good and as cheap as possible, creating even different grades where de…

My point is not related to seeing it as a market (although in most cases it is broadly one because it "competes" against other means of transportation).

It is a question of how to pay for the cost of things, allocation of resources, subsidies, best use of taxpayers' money, not least when public finances are under high strain and/or huge structural investments are needed in many countries.

Re: Dutch Railways offers unlimited off-peak train travel nationwide for €49/month

#130
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think seeing it as a market introduces the kind of biases and distortions that make the British system so incredibly expensive, and now also unreliable. This is not the market for some fruit or some generic consumer good, with competition at all levels and a very flexible incentive structure that will move resources around to make the product as good and as cheap as possible, creating even different grades where de…

My point is not related to seeing it as a market (although in most cases it is broadly one because it "competes" against other means of transportation). It is a question of how to pay for the cost of things, allocation of resources, subsidies, best use of taxpayers' money, not least when public finances are under high strain and/or huge structural investments are needed in many countries.

but that is a market you are describing, one for the allocation of resources

it isn't really, the resources are created by the structure commercialising the service, and incidentally the other means of transportation are also made expensive by a connected structure

owning and operating a car in the UK is very expensive, esp. if you need to regularly park it near the most important economic centres, and this is also by design

more than a market, it's engineered scarcity and tax collection running this service and that is what they're maximising for, instead of economy of transportation which is perhaps the implied real metric of what would work as a market

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