Live data from Hacker News

Open source AI must win

opensourceaimustwin.com

121–130 of 538 posts

Re: Open source AI must win

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is fantastic news then, if commercial product products will always be better than open source, and open source products will continue to get better

Agreed. The only "issue" is that commercial products will always be ahead, with less friction for most users. This ultimately results in most people using these over open-weight variants. Users might not even be aware that the open-model variants exist. Similar to Windows / MacOS and Linux.

In a way that's ok, though? I run Linux on my laptop, and in some ways it's better than Windows or macOS, and in other ways it's lacking. But that's fine; the existence of Windows and macOS doesn't mean I can't run Linux, and doesn't mean I have a worse experience.

(Yet; I do worry about future required hardware attestation for basic things, but that's another issue.)

Re: Open source AI must win

#122

I've been contemplating a decentralized model training system for some time using volunteer machines that we all contribute. But, it is astronomically difficult. The communication speeds are untenable. And, there is the issue of data poisoning from untrusted nodes. I've almost cracked that last issue with a self-healing checkpointed rollback system that doesn't have to throw out anything that follows the corrupt datu…

Ya that'd be an awesome project, the only issue is how do you verify it's not being poisoned? To actually validate it would require more analysis than the training took to run. It would require a trusted network, not an open one, unless that can get solved somehow.

Re: Open source AI must win

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple answer: taking the jobs is how it’ll impact regular people the most. We already have personalized, algorithmic advertising and what I would call “control” all over the place: things like consolidated oligarch-owned media. AI isn’t going to change how we are advertised to or controlled all that much, at least compared to the prospect of being put out of work or taking a huge salary cut similar to the mid-centur…

Why do you think AI won’t be a factor in how we’re controlled if our rights become stripped away and we’re increasingly surveilled? Or if violence is deployed by the state against its people with broader targeting? You seem to take for granted that nothing will change except maybe the flavor of rhetoric.

Oh I definitely think it will be a factor. I don’t mean to say that it won’t.

What I’m saying is that the general public is most obviously and personally impacted by their economic situation and job prospects.

Joe Citizen who lives by the rules might not even notice that new Flock camera on his street, but he will notice if he’s laid off from his job.

Re: Open source AI must win

#124

I've been contemplating a decentralized model training system for some time using volunteer machines that we all contribute. But, it is astronomically difficult. The communication speeds are untenable. And, there is the issue of data poisoning from untrusted nodes. I've almost cracked that last issue with a self-healing checkpointed rollback system that doesn't have to throw out anything that follows the corrupt datu…

[flagged]

The first half of your comment is unnecessarily aggressive and dismissive to op.

Re: Open source AI must win

#125
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just opt out... you don't have to use these things.

At this point, or perhaps not too far off it's like opting out of electricity, or the automobile. Sure you can. But you're going to have a bad time.

And then the Amish see the world around them using electricity and cars and think, "Yep, I'm happier without that." And they're one of the few groups on earth with a growing population, so they're doing something right.

Re: Open source AI must win

#126

Who is going to fund it? Training is unfathomably expensive. You have either VC funded models looking for a return on investment, or CCP funded models looking to solidify authoritarian "model Chinese society". Maybe there are some university 4B models, but I doubt those will carry far.

I share your concerns, although we still see pretty similarly large and complex things that remain open source today. I am astonished on a daily basis that my Linux computer is so close to the same experience as two operating systems put out by trillion dollar companies. It even does things that those commercial alternatives don’t do. Also, if DeepSeek is truly putting out models with 1/10th the cost of Western compe…

> I am astonished on a daily basis that my Linux computer is so close to the same experience as two operating systems put out by trillion dollar companies. It even does things that those commercial alternatives don’t do.

We live in a world where you can "port" open source software to a new language (Rust) and close it up.

Linux will be ported to Rust and closed. It'll probably also be put under MIT/BSD because nobody cares anymore, but the companies will have their own internal private variants. And these will be the ones that see corporate development.

The value in open source is that it was a lot of concentrated value that was hard to copy, clone, or rip off. Now you can one shot a replacement with a few hundred bucks in tokens.

The economic value of Linux used to be billions of dollars. Soon it'll probably be closer to $0.

It's over.

> Meta “gives away” React for similar reasons: it’s more beneficial for them to have it be a standard and be able to hire people who already know it.

Nah, now you just one shot your thing. And you do it fast enough and with distribution and you win. Eventually human devs can't afford to keep competing and launching startups slower than a hyperscaler's own massively funded efforts.

This is the end of open source and the end of solo developers.

And when the ruthlessly effective models that can one shot entire business functions cost $1,000,000 per invocation. Oracle can afford to press the button to create, say, a new smartphone. But you cannot.

Just wait until devices start requiring trusted computing attestation. The ladder is going to be pulled up.

Re: Open source AI must win

#127
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its the closest terminology we have to describe that process. https://github.com/cobusgreyling/loop-engineering Its hard to come up with new names for novel processes, you mostly reuse what is close enough and well known.

Loop engineering, whatever that is, is obviously just a way to get people to increase the amount of tokens required per task/request. They did the same thing with Ralph loops, they just need more revenue. Just write your code and use it to search and clarify, it can't build that magical thing you think it can.

The heuristic is this-

Given a problem P-

1. Provide a list(S) of solutions(S1, S2 ... SN) ordered in the most efficient(For some definition of efficiency) implementation means possible.

2. Execute S1, ... SN.

3. If P is fixed by a solution in the list, halt.

4. Else for each S1 ... SN , execute steps 1 through 4 until, all dependencies and sub problems are resolved to eventually solve P.

This obviously needs lots of tokens, which is all the more reason why we need AI to run locally on our machines.

Re: Open source AI must win

#128

Who is going to fund it? Training is unfathomably expensive. You have either VC funded models looking for a return on investment, or CCP funded models looking to solidify authoritarian "model Chinese society". Maybe there are some university 4B models, but I doubt those will carry far.

Who funds Semiconductor fabs

When Jensen (Nvidia) was doing interviews at his recent public talks, he was asked something along the lines of: "Why release these new laptops which are a low margin market, if your other businesses are vastly more profitable?" and his answer was basically that if they can build the coolest and best technology and push the frontier, they will do it. It's not all about making tons of money. He seemed genuinely excited about the tech.

It highlights the difference between companies like Nvidia and Anthropic to me, where one is clearly all about the money and power, and the other is doing it because they genuinely want to accelerate progress and make cool stuff as the driving factor. It's no surprise therefore, that Nvidia is the worlds largest open-source contributor to AI, with over 800 open-weight models.

Of course, these models run on Nvidia hardware, so they benefit from it as a company. But with that healthy mindset, they found a way to contribute that not only benefits everyone, but also benefits themselves.

Contrast to Anthropic, who has gone the complete opposite direction. Closed off everything, restricting everything, fearmongering progress, regulatory capture attempts, the list goes on. I mean, they won't even agree on using AGENTS.md as a standard because CLAUDE.md is free marketing for them. That's the level of disgusting greed we are dealing with...

From a game theory perspective, the cooperative strategies tend to win. As a result, Nvidia has set themselves up for a lifetime. Anthropic however, is playing a strategy of winner takes all, and they're happy to see the world and the entire AI industry collapse in the process.

Re: Open source AI must win

#130
post #24
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about information but about capital. Even if we had free access to the weights of the best models in the world: who would be able to run them?

Technology is deflationary. I am holding in my hand a device that would have been a supercomputer 30 years ago. It costed me a couple of hundreds of dollars. These models and the hardware they are running on will get even more efficient. We are nowhere near the physical limits of what we can achieve.

> Technology is deflationary.

Not anymore! Well, if you're like Elon and already taking down the bottle of Cuatro Comas from the high shelf, the economies of scale will continue to work in your favor.

But one of the really neat things about AI is that there is no limit in sight to the scaling incentive. More compute will always get you more: more training, more inference, more parameters, more capacity to build more and better models, more spare capacity to run the slop your models have already built to generate the slop that will succeed it. Back in the dot-com days, or even the "big data" days, you wanted to scale up rapidly but there was a limit: there were only so many customers and they could only produce so much data you could only ingest so fast. In the late 90s, one of the world's most trafficked sites, ftp.cdrom.com, ran on a (single!) dual-processor Pentium Pro system. That was just serving files, and there was certainly room for more CPU oomph to provide more sophisticated services to a huge customer base. But once those customers were served, more compute, storage, and network capacity didn't buy you enough to justify the capex. That is emphatically not the case with AI, and so the incentives for the AI companies are to buy as much compute as they possibly can. What this means in practicing is pre-purchasing capacity at the semiconductor fabs to manufacture chips exclusively for you, and there's only so much of that capacity in the world. Trillion-dollar companies can easily outbid the entire consumer market, and so the incentives for the fabs are now to sell to AI companies at the expense of the consumer market. That's why you're seeing memory prices go through the roof. Modularized RAM for end-user PC builds will soon go the way of the CRT: it will cease to exist as a market product, it won't be manufactured anywhere by anyone. GPUs, CPUs, and storage will soon follow. The only devices end users will be permitted to purchase are all-in-one integrated devices, with CPU, RAM, GPU, storage, and networking either integrated in-chip or soldered on, and they will have just enough capacity to connect to the cloud services the user wants most to use. Most likely, you will be permitted a subscription to such a device, with automatic hardware upgrades at periodic intervals supplied by the manufacturer. If your subscription lapses the device bricks itself. Almost certainly, the OS will be locked down, with no end-user option to install a different one or even run unapproved software.

If reasonably powerful computer hardware for end users exists in this future, it will be available from a single company: Apple. Only they have the leverage to prevent ~100% of manufacturing capacity from going to high-roller, big-tech firms.

Post reply on HN