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Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

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Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#121

Post by vrganj »

EdiX wrote: post #93
vrganj wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU in just the past year has signed deals with Latin America and India in addition to the already existing ones with South Korea, Canada, Japan etc. It has positioned itself at the center of the world's largest free trade zone. It's managed to replace US contributions to Ukraine and looks like its in the process of bloodying Russia's nose. Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy. And the india's deal is saddling us with more third world immigration that will only make things worse. It seems to me that this is still all the EU not keeping up with where the world is going. We started drafting the mercosur agreement 27 years ago so we finalize it and call it a victory, all that it's probably going t…

Our defense industry and economic might are plenty to stop Russia.

China's system of government is China's matter. I think we could learn a lot from them, actually.

Immigration will be vital to the survival of Europe. We are far below replacement level birth rates and we'll need new young people to keep our societies functioning. Being European is about values, not the color of your skin. If immigrants don't live up to those, we can sanction. But we can't just let Europe die out because of some sense of racial superiority.

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#122

Post by jurgenburgen »

djaro wrote: post #42
fc417fc802 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah. Just a blatant inaccuracy on wikipedia I take it. That does make a bit more sense.

As far as I can tell .gov.nl is only used for pages aimed at i.e. expats and businesses. Most services dutch people use simply have a .nl page like the digital id or filing taxes.

This makes sense because gov is anglocentric and would make the URLs sound weird in non-English countries.

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#123

Post by vrganj »

graemep wrote: post #109
vrganj wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU in just the past year has signed deals with Latin America and India in addition to the already existing ones with South Korea, Canada, Japan etc. It has positioned itself at the center of the world's largest free trade zone. It's managed to replace US contributions to Ukraine and looks like its in the process of bloodying Russia's nose. Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

The EU has expanded to incorporate many more countries but is a much smaller fraction of the world's economy than it was in the 70s. Europe is the world's slowest growing region so this will continue.

Youre only counting the core, not the periphery we bound to us through deals I mentioned.

Korea, Canada, Latin America, India. They're all bound to us. Europe is just the imperial capital of the largest economic region in the world.

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#124

Post by [deleted] »

graemep wrote: post #112
koonsolo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. I would say we are making progress on both. China is not happy with recent EU decision for example. Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted. Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expert…

Making progress how? High economic growth? No. An effective military? Nothing compared to the 1980s. The UK's defence minister resigned today because of the prime minister's refusal to adequately fund defence.

[deleted]

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#125

Post by AnthonyMouse »

beloch wrote: post #110
kubb wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could take your analogy further, and consider why the Swiss banking isn’t so opaque anymore. Hint: people who did really inhuman things used that system to store their profits, and the Swiss society, developed and stable as it is, decided that they don’t want to bear the moral cost of it anymore.

The Swiss didn't vet their clients. If Vladimir Putin wants to contract a data centre on your soil for the privacy, you can always have regulations that say, "No.".

The entire premise of "other countries can trust your companies to protect their privacy" is that you can't. "US reads Dutch emails" is the thing you have to not do.

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#126

Post by jdw64 »

pjc50 wrote: post #95
jdw64 wrote: post #10

It seems similar conversations are happening in Europe as well. Originally, Korea is a country where the 'pro US faction' (the faction that believes Korea should be subordinate to the US) is very strong by default. The US had a very strong influence on the establishment of the Korean government, and if you look back at Korea's history, it has always been about finding a country to serve. It feels like siding with the…

South Korea does seem to be somewhere where the people are more acutely aware that they are a new democracy, and also that there are a number of horrific fascist incidents in recent memory ("tank day") which remind people that it matters. It seems Korea lacks the "cheat code" for fascism: an ethnic minority population on which all evil can be blamed.

In Korea, there is also a minority group that receives that kind of hatred. They are called Choseonjok(To be clear, I think this kind of discrimination is wrong), which refers to ethnic Koreans who came from autonomous regions in China. There are also problems with far right groups, particularly religious ones. They tend to hate China. (I do not hate any specific country. I hate and also love all humans around the world. Every country has its own problems.) There is also collusion between religion and politics, such as religious groups helping politicians with their election campaigns. Korea itself has many problems, but in our case, it is probably because our historical background has taught us how hateful the era of dictatorship was

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#127

Post by saulapremium »

graemep wrote: post #107
lava_pidgeon wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world." I disagree on this broad statement.

Why? I see statements like this as evidence of denial - the same with the downvotes. No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong". Europe is relatively a much smaller fraction of the global economy or population than it was a few decades ago. It is militarily less significant. How is that not a decline? Shooting the messenger is just another sign of being in denial.

>No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong".

You presented no argument yourself, just a broad "denial". Which is, as GP said, is wrong. I am sure plenty of people are in denial but plenty are well aware of the real situation and doing things about it.

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#128

Post by Ray20 »

koonsolo wrote: post #91
graemep wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvotes for stating a reasonable, and probably correct argument. Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world. The UK is a bit of an exception in being aware of it and actually talking about it. That is about it.

We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. I would say we are making progress on both. China is not happy with recent EU decision for example. Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted. Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expert…

> We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily.

It doesn't seems like this. It hasn't even been ten years since Europeans ridiculed Trump for making such calls, and it doesn't look like anything has changed.

> Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted.

Why do you think access to the European market is so critical?

> Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe.

Ukraine is a deindustrialized country, corrupt at every level. Their experience is worth little, and if you think they understand what a drone warfare is, wait until you see China in action, which has thousands of times more capable engineers and can produce drones that are better, ten times cheaper, and in tens of thousands times greater volume.

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#129

Post by Chris2048 »

lII1lIlI11ll wrote: post #120
beloch wrote: post #94

If a politically stable nation with a good international reputation were to guarantee government respect for data privacy for data centres housed on its soil and run by its companies, that nation could become the Swiss bankers of data. Rolling your own "digital sovereignty" is not going to be cheap for most nations, and many other nations simply won't be trusted by anyone, least of all their own citizens. It's a bit…

It is not as simple as banking - people tend to want low-latency and high-speed connection which necessitate the data center to be in close proximity. Which basically means that founding a country with strong data protection laws somewhere in Antarctic won't get you many clients in Europe.

> people tend to want low-latency and high-speed

that might change is privacy is an option. The real problem is the cost of building in the middle of nowhere, even if you use spare Starlink capacity, where do you get power & personnel from?

Re: Digital Sovereignty Becomes an Imperative as the US Reads Dutch Emails

#130

Post by throwwwll »

kubb wrote: post #105
beloch wrote: post #94

If a politically stable nation with a good international reputation were to guarantee government respect for data privacy for data centres housed on its soil and run by its companies, that nation could become the Swiss bankers of data. Rolling your own "digital sovereignty" is not going to be cheap for most nations, and many other nations simply won't be trusted by anyone, least of all their own citizens. It's a bit…

You could take your analogy further, and consider why the Swiss banking isn’t so opaque anymore. Hint: people who did really inhuman things used that system to store their profits, and the Swiss society, developed and stable as it is, decided that they don’t want to bear the moral cost of it anymore.

> Swiss society decided

Nice attempt at whitewashing and gaslighting, but the only entity here that decided that is the fucking US of A.

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