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Three Ways to Get Paid (2018)

jasonzweig.com

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Re: Three Ways to Get Paid (2018)

#121

Post by jimmydddd »

apprentice7 wrote: post #76
beej71 wrote: post #58

When I was a dev working with my business-oriented business partner, I had to get used to sitting in meetings where we promised the client the world having no idea if I could accomplish it or not. Made a lot more money than I could have on my own. "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say 'YES'!!"

This is often the advice given by senior folks and I think it is somewhat similar to say that you have to "lie a bit on your CV". Still, I always wonder what would I do if I make these big promises to clients/bosses/management and I fail to deliver. Wouldn't that be worse than having said "no, I won't be able to make it in time" from the beginning? For context, I'm early in my career (3 YOE) and I don't deal with man…

It took me years to notice that folks who confidently made stuff up or provided incorrect info in meetings were looked upon favorably. No one ever knew or cared that the thing the person said was incorrect. Just the confident way they said it.

Re: Three Ways to Get Paid (2018)

#123

Post by BeetleB »

apprentice7 wrote: post #76
beej71 wrote: post #58

When I was a dev working with my business-oriented business partner, I had to get used to sitting in meetings where we promised the client the world having no idea if I could accomplish it or not. Made a lot more money than I could have on my own. "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say 'YES'!!"

This is often the advice given by senior folks and I think it is somewhat similar to say that you have to "lie a bit on your CV". Still, I always wonder what would I do if I make these big promises to clients/bosses/management and I fail to deliver. Wouldn't that be worse than having said "no, I won't be able to make it in time" from the beginning? For context, I'm early in my career (3 YOE) and I don't deal with man…

One trick I learned: If you have the type of manager who doesn't like "No", then say "Yes", but continually keep him in the loop as the project progresses to failure.

If you're up front honest, they'll think you're being lazy - even if you have good reasons.

If you say "Yes", and then fail for all those reasons while providing regular reports, the manager views you as "Someone who is willing to do things".

They often don't care about your actual success/failure rate, but instead use your attitude as a proxy for the actual success/failure rate.

Also, as the project is moving to failure, he'll usually intercept with "OK, how about we changed the requirements to ...?"

If you asked for that change in the beginning, the same rationale as the above applies.

Re: Three Ways to Get Paid (2018)

#124

Post by LeifCarrotson »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #73
greenhearth wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Time is coming"? Pretty sure this always happened

It’s a pretty old quote

Yeah, but even when it was a new quote, it was inaccurate: People have always wanted to follow their own desires, always wanted to be told what they want to hear, and always disliked listening to harsh truths. Even in 64CE.

Re: Three Ways to Get Paid (2018)

#125

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

4lx87 wrote: post #80
apprentice7 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is often the advice given by senior folks and I think it is somewhat similar to say that you have to "lie a bit on your CV". Still, I always wonder what would I do if I make these big promises to clients/bosses/management and I fail to deliver. Wouldn't that be worse than having said "no, I won't be able to make it in time" from the beginning? For context, I'm early in my career (3 YOE) and I don't deal with man…

Nobody wants to hear "no". The way you say "no" without saying it is by turning "no" into an option, and attaching costs to options. "no, I won't be able to make it in time" would be "I can confidently deliver in time if I have X, and we save Y and Z for later."

Exactly this. I'm in a situation where I have to tell a customer that we won't be able to do the thing that I've spent a long time investigating.

My answer won't be "no, we can't do it." It'll be a form of "we have to use this alternate method to get to the goal, how does that affect your budget?"

Re: Three Ways to Get Paid (2018)

#127

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

gonzalohm wrote: post #90
beej71 wrote: post #58

When I was a dev working with my business-oriented business partner, I had to get used to sitting in meetings where we promised the client the world having no idea if I could accomplish it or not. Made a lot more money than I could have on my own. "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say 'YES'!!"

The downside is all the stress from unrealistic objectives

What? Me worry?

Re: Three Ways to Get Paid (2018)

#128

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

nostrademons wrote: post #107
gonzalohm wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside is all the stress from unrealistic objectives

That's what I experienced early in my career, and then I independently discovered Rule 3: "Tell the truth to people who want to be lied to, and you'll go broke." The key to surviving in such an environment is to let go of your ideas of the truth . The customer doesn't want to hear it, and doesn't want to know it. Deliver the lies that will make them happy and only those lies. The lies themselves are usually reasonabl…

You don't have to lie!

You do need to understand the customer's perspective so you can reframe the reality in a way that they will agree with.

Re: Three Ways to Get Paid (2018)

#129

Post by danaris »

4lx87 wrote: post #80
apprentice7 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is often the advice given by senior folks and I think it is somewhat similar to say that you have to "lie a bit on your CV". Still, I always wonder what would I do if I make these big promises to clients/bosses/management and I fail to deliver. Wouldn't that be worse than having said "no, I won't be able to make it in time" from the beginning? For context, I'm early in my career (3 YOE) and I don't deal with man…

Nobody wants to hear "no". The way you say "no" without saying it is by turning "no" into an option, and attaching costs to options. "no, I won't be able to make it in time" would be "I can confidently deliver in time if I have X, and we save Y and Z for later."

> Nobody ever, ever, wants to hear "no".

Frankly, that's toddler level thinking.

While there are certainly people who are rich enough and spoiled enough that they have probably never been meaningfully refused anything in their lives, that produces terrible people, and absolutely everyone needs to learn how to accept being told "no" when "no" is the correct answer (or a reasonable one).

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