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Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

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Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#121

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

shlant wrote: post #105
conception wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously because they care more about things than just making money.

> Obviously because they care more about things than just making money. why should someone be banned from selling their land if they want?

The concept of land ownership is somewhat flawed (how can you "own" something that existed before you and will outlast you) and there's a finite amount of land available for various purposes, so for the benefit of humanity/civilisation it can make sense to ensure that land with certain properties is kept for the purpose of growing food or for hosting particular ecosystems (e.g. rivers).

Even if it's not agricultural land, there can be strategically important pieces of land that a country will insist cannot be sold to organisations that are opposed to the values of that country. However, in those cases, it might make more sense for the state to make compulsory purchases of that land.

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#122

Post by oersted »

vitally3643 wrote: post #109
oersted wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, do they really have such an impact? They are of course big and expensive, but surely most datacenters are relatively innocuous in terms pollution and general disruption to the area compared to any regular heavy-industry site, right? Please let me know if I'm wrong, I'm not sure. EDIT: I do get it, it is mainly about local benefit not really about pollution or disruption, even if they are loud about that…

The noise pollution is quite significant in the immediate area, and the heat output notably raises outdoor temperatures in a surprisingly wide area. That also of course ignores air and water pollution caused by the increased demand on electricity generation (or jet turbines spun up in the parking lot). But the point is they suck up land and resources for no material or economic benefit to the local population. There'…

But are they really at the same level of disruption as any steel, chemical, nuclear, gas, manufacturing, recycling... plant? A mine? A port? Industrial farming?

I get it though, they don't mind if it benefits the local community, that's the issue. I suppose it does make a lot of sense for at least the local municipality to charge steep ongoing land rents or fees for the zoning license. And I suppose that requires national coordination, otherwise they'll just go the next town over, which is exactly what is happening right now.

In China, local municipalities were very profitable for decades just from selling or renting land to industrial deployments. It had a big impact on the local tax burden and they were significant net contributors to the national budget, instead of the other way around.

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#123

Post by Bender »

sagarm wrote: post #119
Bender wrote: post #111

I am usually apposed to any tax on anyone or any entity for any reason but I am also jaded after a lifetime of seeing taxes almost entirely go to fraud waste and abuse that only grows with time and very rarely ever shrinks. me and my weird fantasies about implementing the code of bushidō in all governments world wide. This will be an unpopular opinion as I have many but if these taxes are allocated 100% to offsetting…

Isn't there already enough graft directed towards farmers?

Yes and no. There is money allocated to grow specific crops and if it were up to me that would vanish. Farmers would go back to growing what the economy was demanding and not artificially propping up corn for ethanol.

I would take vehicles in two directions. EV's where it makes sense and hyper efficient hybrid vehicles that emit clean exhaust and get 150+mpg to fill some EV gaps until battery tech progresses quite a bit more.

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#124

Post by smw »

vitally3643 wrote: post #109
oersted wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, do they really have such an impact? They are of course big and expensive, but surely most datacenters are relatively innocuous in terms pollution and general disruption to the area compared to any regular heavy-industry site, right? Please let me know if I'm wrong, I'm not sure. EDIT: I do get it, it is mainly about local benefit not really about pollution or disruption, even if they are loud about that…

The noise pollution is quite significant in the immediate area, and the heat output notably raises outdoor temperatures in a surprisingly wide area. That also of course ignores air and water pollution caused by the increased demand on electricity generation (or jet turbines spun up in the parking lot). But the point is they suck up land and resources for no material or economic benefit to the local population. There'…

I think the idea that they raise outdoor temps over a wide area is a myth spread on facebook. The physics doesn't work out.

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#125

Post by sagarm »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #79
john_strinlai wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at some point the additional tax revenue outweighs the downsides

I disagree as you can't eat or drink tax revenue.

Datacenters don't meaningfully impact food production.

This is just an aesthetic objection, nothing more.

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#126

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

mgrunwald_ wrote: post #95
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when the AI businesses have lots of available money, so they might not care about the extra taxes (they're spending billions anyway). There's also the problem that they might destroy the future agricultural worth of the land with e.g. polluted waste water. Given that they don't want agricultural land used for data centers, it makes more sense to just ban them rather than allowing it if they get some extra cash…

Please let's not fool ourselves that AI businesses don't care about costs because they have a lot of money. They burn a lot of money, yes, but they are looking for profitability and they won't achieve it with a 200% tax on top of large energy bills and hardware expenses.

The timing can make a big difference though, as they might be happy to burn through money to get better adoption, especially if that pumps up their stock price. Also, if the executive making the decision is looking to jump ship, then they might not care about the long term impact.

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#127

Post by thefz »

oersted wrote: post #85
amluto wrote: post #60

To me, datacenters, especially for AI (which tolerates an extra hundred ms of latency quite well) seem like an unusual form of development. Many forms of development have similar downsides: they destroy green space, they can be noisy, they compete for energy resources [0], etc. On the flip side, though, most new developments add substantial value: jobs, tax revenue, increased industry around them, local availability…

I'm confused, do they really have such an impact? They are of course big and expensive, but surely most datacenters are relatively innocuous in terms pollution and general disruption to the area compared to any regular heavy-industry site, right? Please let me know if I'm wrong, I'm not sure. EDIT: I do get it, it is mainly about local benefit not really about pollution or disruption, even if they are loud about that…

Noise pollution is huge and water usage is through the roof which could worsen the effect of droughts where water is already scarce. Not to mention the imbalances they generate on power distribution.

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#128

Post by napolux »

qalmakka wrote: post #50
perks_12 wrote: post #19

Datacenters need cheap energy, something no region in Europe is having in abundance (except maybe Norway, Sweden, and Finland). I don't think Lombardy was seeing too much DC construction. It's just typical green politics. Forever backwards. Sure, people feel somewhat AI-fatigued, but blocking the future won't play out nicely for Italy or Europe in general.

As an Italian, I second that this is clearly a populist manoeuvre. Nobody in their sound mind would ever build a big datacentre in Northern Italy, the energy costs are way too expensive. There is no untapped hydro power available, fossil fuel is obviously always going to be more expensive than elsewhere, no nuclear power and you can't roll in a massive solar array with batteries due to how cramped the Po Valley alrea…

Just read the article

> There are already 33 active data centres in the Milan metropolitan area alone; a further 10 are under construction and 23 under evaluation.

Sometimes you will need to do stuff even if energy is not cheap. Come on (I’m italian too)

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#129

Post by thefz »

morpheuskafka wrote: post #64
amluto wrote: post #60

To me, datacenters, especially for AI (which tolerates an extra hundred ms of latency quite well) seem like an unusual form of development. Many forms of development have similar downsides: they destroy green space, they can be noisy, they compete for energy resources [0], etc. On the flip side, though, most new developments add substantial value: jobs, tax revenue, increased industry around them, local availability…

A warehouse or factory would have more jobs, but would also bring massive truck loads to the local roads and corresponding pollution. The low staffing of datacenters means that one they are built there is little transportation impact.

And there is almost zero value generated locally.

Re: Lombardy increases charges for the construction of data centres in green areas

#130

Post by john_strinlai »

dukeyukey wrote: post #87
john_strinlai wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they said "that many jobs" not "no jobs". compared to something like a car factory, data centers do not provide that many jobs. (and the jobs are of significantly different nature)

Directly, sure. Indirectly, they have created many millions of jobs. Tens of millions at the very lowest. There are nearly 30 million web developers alone.

the problem is that many of those jobs often aren't in the locale. by necessity, car factory workers work, live, spend money, and pay taxes in the same general area as the car factory. that does not hold true for web developers (which may be in entirely different countries).
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