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Jira Is Turing-Complete

seriot.ch

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Re: Jira Is Turing-Complete

#121

Post by ivan_gammel »

l72 wrote: post #116
ivan_gammel wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dysfunctional organization will project its failures to everything it touches. I personally have not seen such mess, likely because working in regulated industries means there‘s usually some SOP or work instruction that is regularly updated, so the setup is driven by the compliance process. Nowadays, I opt in for Atlassian because it works fine out of the box, I avoid heavy customization (which would mean tool lock…

I find the problem is that engineering wants one work flow, product wants another, another department wants theirs, and so on. As a CTO I have declared that Jira is owned by engineering and it is our developers’ process.

Sounds… political. You have cross-functional teams interfacing via a tool. It would be reasonable to co-design this interface, so that all user goals are taken into account. When engineering owns the tool, do they approach the configuration of JIRA the same way as they build the product?

Re: Jira Is Turing-Complete

#122

Post by encom »

amai wrote: post #113

Try Azure Boards instead and you will love JIRA. Because there is no software in the world that Microsoft can't make worse.

I've always hated Gmail. I still do. But I switched jobs last year, and the new place uses Outlook instead. I struggle to find a word that adequately describes my disdain for Outlook; hate doesn't even begin to cover it. It struggles at the most basic of tasks: receiving and sending email. I'll get a notification on my phone about an email. I open the app and there's nothing. Pull down to refresh does nothing. It takes about 1-15 minutes to appear usually. Everything I do in Outlook is tedious as fuck.

Many moons ago, in like Office 2003 times, I used Outlook as well, and I don't remember it being this bad. How did it regress so badly?

Don't even get me started on Teams - I don't really know what problem that program is supposed to solve. Also our shared files are in OneDrive. But they're also in Teams. And they're also in Outlook for some reason. I had to transfer a bunch of computer backups (CloneZilla images) to OneDrive/Teams/Outlook. About 30 or so GB. It took forever, and my 6-core Ryzen laptop with Win11 was spinning its fans like mad the entire time. How? Why?

Re: Jira Is Turing-Complete

#123

Post by hibikir »

chuckadams wrote: post #99
crabbone wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see very naive points here: * "Corporate hackers" is a... not a very common thing. In the corporate world most programmers do what they are told to do and nothing more. Initiative is punishable. * API wrappers aren't actually good. Not to mention that the API itself is very poor. JIRA has a tradition of arbitrary changing things, especially removing things, or not exposing the useful functionality. It's not a w…

I've worked for a few Fortune 50 companies, and they all had "shadow IT" that would crank out scripts and tools with no official sanction to work around the cumbersomeness of the official tools (or sometimes their complete lack). That's what corporate hackers are.

You know your company has made it when shadow IT has been merged into central IT after a tough political fight, and as they try to make the old shadow IT less responsive and more standard, a new wave of real shadow IT gets hired. That new, real shadow IT might even be paid more, because they are often hidden in CapEx somewhere, instead of having to go with HR standards for leveling and job descriptions. I've seen the biggest things come out of said shadow IT groups, precisely because their management is uninterested in the glacial procedures of real IT.

Re: Jira Is Turing-Complete

#124

Post by homeonthemtn »

Groxx wrote: post #16
Buttons840 wrote: post #13

Jira is popular and has good API wrappers for your favorite language. I'm surprised corporate programmers with the hacker spirit haven't automated most of the things they are asked to do in Jira with Python command line scripts or whatever. If you can make Jira an order of magnitude easier to use for yourself than for the people pushing it, suddenly the script flips and Jira is something you push to protect yourself.…

Quite a few have, the issue is that every Jira instance is a fractal shit snowflake of custom properties several layers deep through old failed migrations to new organization strategies. And many times the API can do stuff that the UI doesn't allow, and everyone's relying on the UI to drive things, so you end up in weirdly broken corners because you didn't notice that you need custom_field_5537 to be paired with cust…

"fractal shit snowflake of custom properties several layers deep through old failed migrations to new organization strategies."

Couldn't have said it better

Re: Jira Is Turing-Complete

#125

Post by kingofmen »

This appears bugged:

> A Minsky program that adds register A into register B looks like:

> 1. DEC A; if A == 0 goto 3 else goto 2

> 2. INC B; goto 1

> 3. HALT

If A initially equals 1 it will be decremented and hit zero; the conditional triggers, and the program halts without ever incrementing B.

...which suggests that Jira is a Turing tarpit in which even the simplest programs are immensely difficult to implement correctly. Who knew?

Re: Jira Is Turing-Complete

#126

Post by mtron_ »

noja wrote: post #27

Any good alternatives to Jira, locally hosted without a huge licence cost?

Bugzilla. Seriously.

Can be easily extended and unneeded fields can be disabled via template.

We use it since 20 years at a 6000 heads company and it's totally fine.

Re: Jira Is Turing-Complete

#127

Post by itomato »

taspeotis wrote: post #20

I came back to a workplace, that still used JIRA. Obviously during the interview I was like oh JIRA yeah yeah yeah you still use that? I can use that. Anyway yes, I can use JIRA. But it was a real shock to see the latest version of JIRA. It has a thousand papercuts, one of the worst is double clicking on text select stuff suddenly kicks fields into editor mode. What I was remembering was JIRA Server 4.0, you can walk…

You can find correlations with stock price and positive user perception that were held up in product.

It came with its share of paper cuts too, like going from 4.x to 6.x or literally anything challenging to the rickety boxes of OFBiz and wholly-different products skinned for looks-maxxing.

Those engineers dipped out a while back and took their $280 shares with them.

Re: Jira Is Turing-Complete

#130

Post by DocTomoe »

Any software that breeds a consultancy culture around it is a software that has become too complex and should probably be broken up into or replaced by smaller, more manageable parts.

I'm saying that as a former ACE-certified Atlassian Consultant from a Platinum Partner. I'm much happier now.

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