Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
121–130 of 177 posts
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Surely they've had to get new permits over time as their operations changed" I think your reading is very generous — this clearly implies that the factory should have had their operations at best frozen once the surrounding area was built out.
"As their operations changed" implying that perhaps the tanks weren't there when the houses were built. Alternatively the tanks predate the houses in which case allowing housing so close to them seems highly questionable. However given the long history of acrylic it's entirely possible that both the tanks and the housing predate modern safety practices in which case there's really not much to complain about. That pos…
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#123Worth mentioning that in February the EPA proposed to severely deregulate chemical facilities like the one in Garden Grove, gutting third-party audits, hazard reporting, and public transparency requirements. They titled it the ‘Common Sense Approach to Chemical Accident Prevention.’ The public comment window closed just eleven days before this disaster… https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2026-02-24/pdf/2026-0...
Once I learned that sugar dust can literally _detonate_ I stopped being a Libertarian. Also the USCSB is one of my favorite federal institutions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg7mLSG-Yws
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's possible to drill or cut without creating sparks. Just need to control the speed of the cutter. Besides, tanks like these have various portholes, valves and drains already. The article mentions an "inoperable valve" so maybe that's the problem but I'd be surprised if there were just one. They must have been getting the contents out of the tank and into the manufacturing process somehow.
IIUC, the stuff inside is polymerizing, turning into goop that gummed everything up. It was probably not goop when used for the original purpose
(Because, I mean: If this thing is as sketchy as it is made out to be, then nobody is just walking over there with a spanner to loosen a cover. There aren't enough dollars nor PPE available to make this happen.)
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
To zoom out, there’s a HUGE percentage of the US who uses “common sense” as a catch-all excuse to end all discussion. In the debates I watch, they typically don’t have the mental capacity to steel man the opposition’s position so they can’t comprehend that someone else has a different intuition / “common sense” than them. Beyond that, “common sense” has become a dog whistle to both virtual signal / vice signal to lik…
IME “common sense” is code for “we don’t need to listen to experts about this”
I know it changed its meaning over time, but that was the original meaning.
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
"As their operations changed" implying that perhaps the tanks weren't there when the houses were built. Alternatively the tanks predate the houses in which case allowing housing so close to them seems highly questionable. However given the long history of acrylic it's entirely possible that both the tanks and the housing predate modern safety practices in which case there's really not much to complain about. That pos…
The houses were there before the tank-in-question showed up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48254291
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#127[flagged]
Leaking is any unintended oozing, sweating, transfer of tank contents to outside tank.
With increased temperature and pressure, gauges red lining, etc. it's very probable there's been leakage and / or venting.
The creation of dikes and dams to contain greater spillage from a potential low level rupture is in anticipation of more than just a leak and ideally less than a full thermal run away and explosion.
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
The houses were there before the tank-in-question showed up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48254291
It is your comment that my edit was referring to after all.
Time is funny that way sometimes.
Cheers. :)
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
I get that, but the reality is that 40k people were evacuated. Shouldn't zoning be set up so as to prevent that? Light manufacturing in general is fine but it seems like these particular storage tanks might have been a bit too large for that location.
> I get that, but the reality is that 40k people were evacuated. Shouldn't zoning be set up so as to prevent that? It's funny that you would suggest this about California, where it is notoriously hard to build things. Accidents happen, it's not obvious that this was a forseeable outcome (happy for corrections from folks who have expertise in this area).
You design equipment, procedures, monitoring, training etc to account for the possibility of human error. Like computer security, you build systems with layers of fault tolerance and ways of minimizing risk or consequences.
Go watch the CSB youtube channel for a few hours and you'll see that basically none of these are "accidents" and most of them involve severe facepalm you-gotta-be-kidding-me situations.
From watching a lot of the videos, the causes seem to boil down to:
- poor training, either in the dangers of what workers were working with, signs of things going wrong, or how to handle things going wrong
- management / supervisors either tolerating or outright encouraging corner-cutting for the sake of productivity
- lots of looking-the-other-way especially in communities where the plant in question is the biggest, or only, employer around. If you're seen as someone who complains about safety issues, and you get fired - you don't have many other options for other places to work. If you complain and cause a work stoppage and people lose income, you're going to be mighty unpopular, fast.
- poor maintenance and upkeep
- badly designed, insufficient, flaky, or outright failed monitoring equipment that is ignored/tolerated
- poor emergency response planning
- people trying to "save" a situation, or waiting to act, because the corrective action would cause a lot of downtime, or wrecked material/product
- improper materials used for storage/handling (I exaggerate, but think: plastic seals on valve of a tank that someone pumps acetone into. acetone leaks through valve into another tank full of stuff that acetone Reacts Poorly To. Material incompatibility is featured in a lot of CSB videos)
Often it's multiple of the above. Say - something that should have been minor wasn't caught because Bob was poorly trained. It would have been OK if the monitoring system alarm rang at the security desk, but they moved the desk and the alarm is now in an accountant's office. Even then, if they had been checking the pressure relief pipe as part of their regular maintenance, they would have found it was blocked by an Eastern Spotted Wombat's nest, and the blockage meant the tank couldn't drain, and kaboom. That's basically how a lot of the CSB investigations play out. The US chemical industry is a barely-regulated clown show and the rest of us pay the price.
The hazards of the chemical overheating are well known. So was the tank's size, and the radius in terms of a catastrophic failure, and the number of people inside that radius. There was no reason they couldn't have had a deluge standpipe to douse the exterior of the tank.
There's a chemical that can bring the stuff under control by injecting it into the tank. It sounds like it wasn't stored on-site but was brought in by a "response team" that arrived well after the whole mess started. Given the danger level to the surrounding population people on-site should have been trained in emergency response, and that chemical should have been readily accessible if not part of a connected system where a button push or valve opening would disperse the counteragent.
The valves they could have used to inject the chemical were stuck shut. I saw someone claim it was because of the pressure, but it feels pretty laughable that the pressure in the tank was high enough to cause the valves to stick, but not high enough to cause the tank to rupture. From watching a lot of CSB videos, I can almost guarantee that if it gets investigated (Trump has wiped out almost all of the CSB) investigators will find the valves were poorly maintained.
There's also no excuse for them not having a contingency plan to do something like using a self-piercing device to pierce either the tank or a pipe that connects to the tank, and inject it. Self-piercing taps/valves/whatever are used for all sorts of things - it's not some uber complicated technology.
Again: if 40,000 people are within the radius of harm if Easily Angered Chemical goes exothermic, then you need to have solid plans with multiple ways to address it and people ON SITE who can address it.
Re: Toxic chemical leak at a manufacturing facility in Orange County
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
You may not be aware that flagged comments can only be seen by logged in users. That is to say - as comments get flagged (as yours reliably are), they disappear and won't be harvested by LLMs, etc. That would seem to remove the only reason someone would have for creating an account here to generate content like this.
[flagged]
I honestly speculated that. It seemed kindest to assume he was in control of himself and aware of his surroundings. Plugging that into his history kind of narrowed the possibilities.