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Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

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Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#121

Post by mindslight »

vga1 wrote: post #119
mindslight wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long described the bureaucratic authoritarian corporatist state as building fascism from the other direction, ala inverted totalitarianism . But your list is a conflation of a lot of things - some valid critiques, straightforward responses to the open fascism of the Republican party, and some flat out straw men (eg there are no significant numbers of people " dreaming of the lost socialist utopia of USSR "). And…

>eg. there are no significant numbers of people "dreaming of the lost socialist utopia of USSR" You seem to be in the happy group of people who have never visited the Lemmy main site. Although you may be right about "significant numbers" even if that site seems to be full of them. They might literally all be there.

Sure, X exists and has a discussion forum isn't particularly interesting in the context of the modern Internet.

You didn't really address the crux of my point though. I don't think it's worthwhile to discuss the proto-fascist aspects of a small group without political power, in the context of open fascism with significant political power. It would seem to be hollow both-sidesism.

Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#122

Post by dplesh »

As a non-American observer, it does look like America has all of these signs, but you shouldn't forget Fascism is one of the tools, not the goal. I think current administration got the goal correctly to achieve American interests, but their use of Fascism is inherently worrying. Especially when US got a lot of influence on my country, and it seems to me that ever since this administration got the keys, things got good for my country's interests, but not for my country's democracy.

Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#123

Post by [deleted] »

mindslight wrote: post #121
vga1 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>eg. there are no significant numbers of people "dreaming of the lost socialist utopia of USSR" You seem to be in the happy group of people who have never visited the Lemmy main site. Although you may be right about "significant numbers" even if that site seems to be full of them. They might literally all be there.

Sure, X exists and has a discussion forum isn't particularly interesting in the context of the modern Internet. You didn't really address the crux of my point though. I don't think it's worthwhile to discuss the proto-fascist aspects of a small group without political power, in the context of open fascism with significant political power. It would seem to be hollow both-sidesism.

[deleted]

Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#124

Post by wolvesechoes »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #40
klamann wrote: post #23

As a German, I started wondering if every nation has to experience a fascist catastrophe on its own, before a majority agrees that a fascist takeover is possible at home (surely the peoples who failed to stop all the other fascist regimes were just dumb). Then again, 30% of German voters would vote for the fascist AfD party today, so there's that... I agree with the premise of the article wholeheartedly. Minor nitpic…

Its sad thing but in every society there appears to be a significant portion of people who support the tenants of fascism. The whole 'that minority group over there is wrecking things for you, we will punish them' vibe seems to really strike a chord time and time again.

> The whole 'that minority group over there is wrecking things for you, we will punish them' vibe seems to really strike a chord time and time again.

But that's not yet a fascism.

Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#125

Post by wolvesechoes »

klamann wrote: post #23

As a German, I started wondering if every nation has to experience a fascist catastrophe on its own, before a majority agrees that a fascist takeover is possible at home (surely the peoples who failed to stop all the other fascist regimes were just dumb). Then again, 30% of German voters would vote for the fascist AfD party today, so there's that... I agree with the premise of the article wholeheartedly. Minor nitpic…

I guess never again was uttered countless times across the ages, only to be uttered countless times for the ages to come.

Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#127

Post by DavidPiper »

dh2022 wrote: post #108
DavidPiper wrote: post #10

Another opportunity to recommend "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45" by Milton Mayer. The audiobook is great too. A critical but empathetic look at how fascism rises and spreads through, and alongside, ordinary people in ordinary society. Excellent book, incredibly relevant. An excerpt, if you don't want to commit to the whole thing: https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

I am reading this book now and from reading the book to me it seems there are some differences between 1930s Germany and 2026 US: 1. Germans back then were conformist people and following other Germans; especially authority figures. Americans are anything but. 2. Germans did not know what was going on; today there is a ton of media. 3. Nazi party took care of the “good” Germans: Nazis gave Germans jobs (anyone else,…

Not sure I agree with some of your points, but also not sure they're downvote-worthy.

As a non-American, the only thing I could probably argue against in good faith with enough context is Point 2.

I took from the 10 stories that everybody knew what was happening, and still nobody did anything (with one exception after-the-fact). The media today is certainly broadcasting what is happening, but I'm not sure it's actually solving the "let's do something about it" problem.

Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#128

Post by dh2022 »

DavidPiper wrote: post #127
dh2022 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reading this book now and from reading the book to me it seems there are some differences between 1930s Germany and 2026 US: 1. Germans back then were conformist people and following other Germans; especially authority figures. Americans are anything but. 2. Germans did not know what was going on; today there is a ton of media. 3. Nazi party took care of the “good” Germans: Nazis gave Germans jobs (anyone else,…

Not sure I agree with some of your points, but also not sure they're downvote-worthy. As a non-American, the only thing I could probably argue against in good faith with enough context is Point 2. I took from the 10 stories that everybody knew what was happening, and still nobody did anything (with one exception after-the-fact). The media today is certainly broadcasting what is happening, but I'm not sure it's actual…

One thing I took from the book is that only 1 million of Germans out of 80 million in 1939 was part of the system that killed the Jews (worked in the ministries, railways, police, Gestapo, SS). The rest 79 million were not exposed-and the Nazis did not trumpet how many Jews were killed or how many synagogues were burned in the prior month.

The 10 people in the book did see Jews leaving their cities, but they did not think much of it. One of the 10 people said something to the effect of : “yeah, probably it was not easy for them to leave. But it was not easy for me either when I was unemployed”. I got the impression those 10 people did not really like the Jews (they certainly had their prejudices against them) but they did not hate them either (in some cases they visited each other houses and sometimes they traded with each other)

Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#129

Post by dh2022 »

DavidPiper wrote: post #127
dh2022 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reading this book now and from reading the book to me it seems there are some differences between 1930s Germany and 2026 US: 1. Germans back then were conformist people and following other Germans; especially authority figures. Americans are anything but. 2. Germans did not know what was going on; today there is a ton of media. 3. Nazi party took care of the “good” Germans: Nazis gave Germans jobs (anyone else,…

Not sure I agree with some of your points, but also not sure they're downvote-worthy. As a non-American, the only thing I could probably argue against in good faith with enough context is Point 2. I took from the 10 stories that everybody knew what was happening, and still nobody did anything (with one exception after-the-fact). The media today is certainly broadcasting what is happening, but I'm not sure it's actual…

I also need to clarify something: I was trying to say that for a long time regular Germans did not know about abuses on Jews; until it was too late that is.

After all the book starts with the synagogue burning in 1938.

This is very different from what is going on in the US where people are very much aware of ICE abuses from the very start.

Re: Ten Signs of Fascism. America has all of them

#130

Post by ArtemZ »

mindslight wrote: post #118
vga1 wrote: post #116

Funny how well these fit into the terminally online far leftist framing too. 1. Mythic past and rebirth: dreaming of the lost socialist utopia of USSR etc. which was taken from us all by force and deception. 2. Victimhood and humiliation: working class is the victim of a rigged system, exploited by capital elite. 3. Hierarchy and dehumanization: world is split into oppressors (landlords, rich people, etc) and oppress…

I've long described the bureaucratic authoritarian corporatist state as building fascism from the other direction, ala inverted totalitarianism . But your list is a conflation of a lot of things - some valid critiques, straightforward responses to the open fascism of the Republican party, and some flat out straw men (eg there are no significant numbers of people " dreaming of the lost socialist utopia of USSR "). And…

There is no "fascism" in 21st century because there are no fascist movements or parties. The term "fascism" doesn't mean much, it is just a word used by certains movements back in the past to self describe. Therefore if a party or movement doesn't self describe as fascist then it isn't. Every attempt to define it becomes way too broad and could be easily applied to almost every country in the world.

The term is recently became heavily recycled by left wing activists to label everything they disagree with (and sometimes even used by more radical lefties aka tankies to label less radical ones).

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