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UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

bbc.com

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Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#121

Post by basket_horse »

spwa4 wrote: post #62

The reason for Palantir at the NHS, the problem they're trying to solve is this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1388245/uk-sick-leave-fi ... Now, I get it. The UK is not exactly providing good jobs for a lot of people, so of course we're seeing this. But, getting a mental health diagnosis, be long-term-sick and avoiding unemployment while both getting paid by an employer and getting unfair advantages out of the…

Actually this is a good read on the problem they are trying to solve https://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Inside-FDP-part-1-Und...

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#122

Post by komali2 »

robertlagrant wrote: post #118
sillyfluke wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but you simply stated but haven't explained why bloat is inevitable in the government except to say there is no market pressure applied in government. Whereas the parent is literally talking about employing people using market rates, an example based on market pressure.

> you simply stated but haven't explained why bloat is inevitable in the government except to say there is no market pressure applied in government. Whereas the parent is literally talking about employing people using market rates, an example based on market pressure. The market pressure I'm referring to isn't on salaries, it's on departments. If a department gets the same budget next year because it managed to spend…

Don't companies also always grow?

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#123

Post by zipy124 »

bfmalky wrote: post #109
zipy124 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The salary isn't that out of line for a mid-level developer nationwide, but yes I would expect it to be higher for the southern location. They could justify the salary if it was fully remote. Bear in mind there is a 23.7% pension contribution from the employer, so it's a roughly £62-70k total comp for a mid-level role. Edit: Actually though, in reality I would expect a salary bump to work in the public sector to enco…

As someone who has recently joined the civil service as a software developer I have to say the working environment in the organisation I joined is pretty great. Salary is not high, but pension, holidays, working hours and flexibility are all very good.

Yes I would agree with regards to those elements of the working environment.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#125

Post by skippyboxedhero »

robertlagrant wrote: post #117
pjc50 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is always the risk of bloat The fantasy lies in ignoring the same risk when it's happening in a private sector contractor, doing the same job for objectively much higher costs.

I agree, but also a civil servant has incredible pension opportunities, and defined benefit as well, and is hard to remove if they turn out to be bad. A contractor is a fixed cost, and individuals can be rejected with far less ceremony and cost. If the civil service could shape its workforce with individualised salaries and quicker removal due to low performance I suspect it'd be a different story. I agree that consu…

Correct, the main reason why private sector is used is nothing to do with salary.

Productivity hasn't increased in the public sector since 1997 due to massive overhiring and bloat, salaries are probably 20-30% higher than they should be based upon on productivity. And the main cost, which isn't factored into the above tired lobbying arguments you read from "sources" in the Guardian, is pensions. Public-sector pensions will rise to 10% of all public spending in the near future.

This is all by intent by the way, the primary issue is that existing employees have impossibly good conditions and it is effectively impossible to reform the system in any way. So you have these people are massively overpaid by any measure screeching about private sector hiring...okay, alternative: 20-30% of workforce are sacked, pensions converted to private scheme with 2% employer contribution, stack rank every year until public sector productivity equals private sector productivity.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#126

Post by vlovich123 »

skeletal88 wrote: post #98
PaulRobinson wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as somebody who has worked vendor side in UK public sector for a number of years. It's policy. It's official Whitehall policy. As a department you can't hire programmers at £100k/year, because that pushes them way, way higher than civil service bands allow. But you can pay a "Systems Integrator" - a consultancy like Cap Gemini, Deloitte, Fujitsu - £600/day for the same programmer in the same seat. So, £100…

In Estonia this was solved by moving all the IT related people to organisations adjacent to the ministries and departments, so the lower paid civil servants wont have to be compared to the highly paid software developers and architects, etc. One colleague used to work as and architect of the justice ministry. He said the suit wearing civil servants with law degrees were pissed off at the homeless looking sweatshirt w…

I’m not sure I buy that. That doesn’t explain what happens when the ministers budget gets slashed and as government policy there’s a push to outsource. It requires consistent commitment at a cultural level across governments. It works in Estonia because Estonia is a small enough country that there’s just no financial incentive for lobbying and it’s let to do its own thing.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#127

Post by skippyboxedhero »

flr03 wrote: post #53
ChrisRR wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developing a replacement system is still going to cost a hell of a lot. It's not like if you dropped palatir then we'd suddenly have a free drop-in replacement and everyone can have their fiver back

You pay money to Palantir that money essentially escapes the economy, you develop a sovereign solution yes you pay millions even more but that goes into corporations and people actually living in the country, paying taxes and spending their coins here.

It doesn't escape the economy. This is the kind of bizarre left-wing isolationism/nationalism that seems to be rife amongst people who don't understand free markets.

If you pay money to Palantir, they are providing a service in return. That service is investment in your own economy, you pay them and then you own the thing they produce. Money does not "escape", the same amount of money is there before and after. The reason the UK is doing bad is this kind of bizarre economic xenophobia combined with a complete hostility to any kind of innovation or change. The question is: why don't we have a company competing with Palantir? Should be very obvious.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#128

Post by justin66 »

andsoitis wrote: post #116
PaulRobinson wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as somebody who has worked vendor side in UK public sector for a number of years. It's policy. It's official Whitehall policy. As a department you can't hire programmers at £100k/year, because that pushes them way, way higher than civil service bands allow. But you can pay a "Systems Integrator" - a consultancy like Cap Gemini, Deloitte, Fujitsu - £600/day for the same programmer in the same seat. So, £100…

> £100k/year = bad, £120k/year Just keep in mind that if you pay someone a salary of £100k, your expense for that employee is actually much higher. So £120k would be less expensive and you also don’t take on thr risk and cost of developing a system (you’re getting “off the shelf”).

Hopefully it goes without saying but the person you're responding to was just giving an example. The contractor vs. permanent employee pay gap absurdity they're highlighting in government contracting is often much more profound than 20%. 100% higher pay for contractors doing the equivalent work in the US isn't uncommon.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#129

Post by robertlagrant »

komali2 wrote: post #122
robertlagrant wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you simply stated but haven't explained why bloat is inevitable in the government except to say there is no market pressure applied in government. Whereas the parent is literally talking about employing people using market rates, an example based on market pressure. The market pressure I'm referring to isn't on salaries, it's on departments. If a department gets the same budget next year because it managed to spend…

Don't companies also always grow?

No, many of them fold, and even those that don't close departments and make redundancies. Companies can only grow if they're serving their customers with value, or if someone believes that they will do in future and puts money in for a bit to get them started.

If they get things wrong by overspending or overinvesting in the wrong thing, they don't have a wellspring of tax money to keep drawing from. They have to offer enough value to not only supply the good and make a profit, but also pay taxes on that profit.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#130

Post by 9x39 »

regularfry wrote: post #70
spwa4 wrote: post #62

The reason for Palantir at the NHS, the problem they're trying to solve is this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1388245/uk-sick-leave-fi ... Now, I get it. The UK is not exactly providing good jobs for a lot of people, so of course we're seeing this. But, getting a mental health diagnosis, be long-term-sick and avoiding unemployment while both getting paid by an employer and getting unfair advantages out of the…

> The issue with this is that this is happening with full support of government employees, and even the courts cooperate to a lesser extent. Why is that an issue? The simplest explanation is that the underlying rate of mental illness is inconveniently high. Which would tally with, as you say: > In fact, nothing is expected at all (other than medical evidence). Also I would take a look at the date when the upcurve sta…

> Why is that an issue?

What’s the counterweight to keep the system in check and from growing out of control? If the only message is yes, it sets up a positive feedback loop.

Looking back and guessing whether Covid justifies it is post hoc rationalization. It says nothing about the validity of individual claims. Fraud schemes in the same timeframe could benefit just as well.

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