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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#121

Post by soco »

eowln wrote: post #75
palata wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my problem with the debate: people like you seem very proud to be uninformed. It exists as much as end-to-end encryption exists. It's cryptography, it's not up to debate. But people who have no clue are very vocal about their belief that it does not exist.

There are no active implementations that do not suffer from severe issues.

There are two ongoing implementations: one weaker in the EU boooo and one good in Switzerland. None having severe issues. Questions?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#122

Post by alkonaut »

HPsquared wrote: post #94
alkonaut wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Instagram: You show the videos from the people you follow on instagram, then no more short videos at all. Possibly a search box. If you search on youtube then it can rank any way it wants, just not use e.g. anything from the viewing history. No "related videos" column. That's what YouTube used to be. But YouTube (unlike TikTok) worked well before it had rabbit holes. For TikTok the situation is worse.…

There is no going back to the 2010 internet unless you confiscate everyone's phones.

Not sure what confiscation would accomplish that regulation couldn’t? I mean we’re all aware that if regulators target TikTok then a new app would pop up and take its place.

But the thing about regulation is that it doesn’t need to be water tight. You can just target a small handful of large players and it will improve the situation in practice. It doesn’t matter if 998/1000 apps use addictive feeds if the largest two apps don’t and they have 90% of users/views.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#123

Post by grumbel »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

Alternative suggestion: Force them to open up the service and allow third party clients. Take Art. 20 GDPR "Right to data portability" and extend it to public content.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#124

Post by butlike »

lp4v4n wrote: post #58

I don't agree with this. Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. At some point, books, movies, comics, etc, etc might have been considered addictive. Social networks in general should be banned for underage people, that's the thing. And the social network itself should be liable for verifying the age its users, like a nightclub is liable for people who…

Addictiveness is measured by ∆FosB gene expression. The 'addictiveness' of a substance or activity is qualified by how much ∆FosB is expressed. It's decidedly not just a completely subjective thing. Books, movies, comics, etc. can all still be measured on this scale. Everything is addictive in some capacity, generally.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#125

Post by p2detar »

jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

Look up images in Google with `eu cigarettes boxes`. Banning is a thin wedge, but I think we need something like these warning labels for social media.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#126

Post by Gigachad »

vasco wrote: post #103
noprocrasted wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the first video you show them Whatever is latest posted across their followings/subscriptions?

If they just signed up they have no followings or subscriptions. So now what, you need to show accounts to follow first? Thats the same problem as deciding what the first video to show is. How do you decide who they should follow? Or the vision is that you can only have friends as if it's 2005 and you can't discover anything serendipitously? I don't consume any content from my friends on something like tiktok where I…

Undoubtably the change needed here will introduce friction, will reduce viewing time, and society will be better off for it.

The whole idea here is to make content consumption more deliberate and mindful rather than just opening the app and veging out to an endless feed of slop.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#127

Post by redsocksfan45 »

dgellow wrote: post #81
criddell wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the radio I heard a reporter talking about things China does during school exams. Apparently all schools have exams at the same time and during that period, social media shuts down at night. I forget the exact hours (10pm - 6am maybe). I'm starting to think that would be a great policy in general for everybody. I think they also said AI companies go offline during exam hours, but I may have got that wrong.

I can understand regulating dark/abusive patterns, but at the end of the day I should be allowed to doomscroll at night if I want to

[dead]

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#128

Post by andrewjf »

Aurornis wrote: post #105
another-dave wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goes away, or is liable for the content promoted to the frontpage under the OP's take? But I'd agree, that it's personalisation rather than just curation that's the issue. I think even requiring sites to have a "bring your own algo" version (and where ads are targetted to the algorithm, rather than the person) would cure a lot of ills. As is, even with something like Spotify where you _are_ paying there's no easy way…

> Goes away, or is liable for the content promoted to the frontpage under the OP's take? Same thing. There is no Hacker News if Y Combinator becomes liable for user submitted content. It’s an obvious backdoor play to make sites go away. If a site becomes liable for content posted, you cannot allow users to post content without having the site review and take responsibility for every comment and every post. The people…

I agree with what OOP said. But it’s not my intent to “shut sites down.” I have this view to try to increase diversity of media consumption and break people out of echo chambers. If your business model is so shit you have to exploit weaknesses in human brains to keep people viewing ads and can’t adapt, then that’s your problem.

If you have an algorithm whose sole purpose is to “engagement” with your own platform (by intentionally and purposely pushing clickbait, ragebait, and media that keeps reinforcing your clicks) you should no longer get section 230 protections - you are no longer a neutral party. These algorithms exist to create echo chambers and keep you clicking so you can consume more ads.

I would love to hear other ways of solving the problems of social media.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#129

Post by thinkingtoilet »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

It's very easy.

"So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them?"

You don't. How about that?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#130

Post by bogwog »

garrettjoecox wrote: post #16

At what point should the responsibility fall on the parent to protect their children from harm? Don’t get me wrong, if I had my way TikTok wouldn’t exist for anyone, adults included. It’s just so strange to me that so many parents hand their 7 year olds unrestricted access to TikTok and expect someone else to keep their kid safe.

Replace TikTok with cigarettes, and it'll hopefully make sense to you. There was a time when people had no idea that smoking was bad for you, which is where we are now with these apps.

And since they're addictive, kids will find a way to get them even if their parents don't allow it. That's why it's most effective to require ID when you're buying cigarettes than it is to shame people for not being perfectly vigilant parents.

BTW, I'm not saying age verification is the solution here. IMO, we should instead ban addictive social media completely. Eg, target specific design patterns/features, require companies to disclose how their algorithms work to regulators, etc.

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