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IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#121

Post by aequitas »

tuetuopay wrote: post #93
donatj wrote: post #14

As someone who prefers tabs (I'm not looking to argue), I once asked Brendan Eich on Twitter why he prefers spaces. His answer was more thoughtful than I'd expected. The tab key itself is hijacked by modern OS/UI behavior. It makes it complicated to actually type literal tab characters in certain contexts, particularly in the browser. I still prefer tabs (and I'm a Go developer), but he is absolutely correct about th…

Yeah but, even ones that don't use literal tab characters use the tab key to write code, right? RIGHT? Like, does he hit space N times? I somewhat get the argument, but if you're writing code in the HN textarea you're doing something wrong (for code where tab/space matters anyways). Like, any code editor will use the tab key properly. Though, it sills maddens me there's no somewhat universal tab-entry in OSes like we…

> Yeah but, even ones that don't use literal tab characters use the tab key to write code, right? RIGHT? Like, does he hit space N times?

Now that I think about it, I think I haven't hit the tab key for indenting code in ages. I use cmd+] and cmd+[ to indent/unindent blocks of code in my default editor and doing so habitual for single lines now as well that I have 'unlearned' the tab key. For the few occasions I'm in a editor that does not have this keybinding I am actually hitting spacebar a few times as it is more predictable than whatever amount of spaces using the tab key would give me (or if it gives me a tab instead of spaces) and me having to dance around with the backspace key as well. Some editors I think use tab/shift-tab to indent/unindent blocks/lines of code, but not insert a tab. But then you are having 2 modes for the same key depending on the context.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#123

Post by jjmarr »

toast0 wrote: post #77
thaumasiotes wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would guess that using the tab key in this way was part of a patent they were pursuing and Microsoft's use would show this to be 'obvious' and thus not patentable. Something that's bothered me about user-facing patents: Let's assume that the idea of using a keyboard key to move between input fields in a software form is not obvious, and in fact is a brilliant stroke of genius the likes of which the world is not l…

> A usability feature that your users cannot use or know about doesn't increase usability. Cannot is maybe doing a lot there. There's plenty of usability features that aren't really obvious or apparent unless you look very closely. Ex: pinball machines have timed shots, but there's almost always a grace period so if you contact the ball with your flipper around when the timer hits zero and it makes the shot, chances…

You're missing the historical context. Prior to patents, inventions would commercialized as magic tricks and the mechanisms hidden. Then the inventor died and the secrets were lost.

For example, Cornelis Drebbel air conditioned Westminster Abbey in 1620. King James I (of the Bible) thought it was a cool party trick. But there was little ecosystem to commercialize and Drebbel moved on with his life, trying to sell other products with temperature controlled feedback loops + a submarine. Then he died.

The only commercialized invention of his was creating a dye that was redder than others. His son-in-law kept that a family secret and focused on selling this improved dye throughout Europe, since that didn't require revealing the secret.

The rational move was to give up on a multitrillion dollar HVAC industry to sell redder dye, since the second could be a trade secret.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#124

Post by AndrewStephens »

IBM was legendarily over-managed. This is second-hand but a guy I used to work with told a story of when he interned for a summer at IBM in London during the mid-90s doing what would now be called a QA engineering. At that time everyone wore suits to work but the culture was changing so the interns put in a request to be allowed casual Fridays. Bear in mind that they were locked in a back room somewhere without any customer interaction so they didn't think it was a big deal.

Months later, just before the end of the internship, they received a reply. Their manager had forwarded their request up the chain of command and the email had the full quoted history. Their request had been bumped up 4 successive layers in the London office, then across to the US headquarters where it continued its upwards trajectory, finally alighting on the desk of a VP who, after thanking them for bring the issue to his attention, rendered an carefully considered opinion.

The whole process had taken weeks, presumably as each person in the hierarchy debated whether they had the authority to tackle such a weighty issue.

The email had then been inexplicably bounced back DOWN the chain one link at a time, back across the Atlantic Ocean, and through the local office, down to the suit-bound interns, again weeks later, who by this stage only had days left at the internship.

The answer was no.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#125

Post by Silamoth »

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #110
LeoPanthera wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a feature, not a bug.

You want source code indentation to be random on different machines? I guess. That would make me crazy.

It’s not “random”, it’s whatever you’ve configured it to on your machine. Your choice of (e.g.) 3 spaces per tab shouldn’t be forced onto me if I prefer (e.g.) 4 spaces per tab. As long as you’re on your machine, you’ll see exactly the amount of code indentation you prefer - not something “random”. On someone else’s machine, well, that’s up to their preference, and it’s hard to complain about how someone else has their machine setup.

TL;DR: This is a feature, not a bug

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#126

Post by ch_123 »

dylan604 wrote: post #116
ch_123 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the | symbol. On later generations of IBM terminal keyboard, you'll see | on the shift-1 position, and a separate key with the broken-bar (¦) symbol. For example, on this keyboard, the broken bar is below the backspace key along with the \ character. https://sharktastica.co.uk/image?id=qhTU8QvD The reason for the two different types of bar/pipe characters, and why the original IBM PC keyboards only had the broke…

I had never come across the broken bar before. I feel sorry for those that had to suffer these keys. The keyboard keys themselves look like they have about a mile of travel which was probably exhausting as well. I learned to type on clackity clackity arm typewriters, and those keys were I assumed designed by a masochist. These look even worse

The early 3270 keyboards (and the other IBM keyboards from the mid 70s up to the early 80s) are some of the most pleasant keyboards I've typed on in terms of key weighting and tactile feel. The length of travel is comparable to modern mechanical keyboards. The downside is how tall and aggressively angled the keyboards are, which are very far from modern ergonomic standards.

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#127

Post by ceayo »

coldpie wrote: post #75
OhMeadhbh wrote: post #60

I think we should connect game controllers to all machines so the arrow buttons move you between fields, the 'A' key takes you up a level (in hierarchical menus), the 'B' key takes you into a subordinate menu. So to move between fields, you type some data, then take your hands off the keyboard, pick up the game controller, hit the right or left buttons, then put your hands back on the keyboard. It should make you SO…

Check this out :) https://github.com/madewokherd/xalia#default-gamepad-control... (It's intended to allow video games that use standard OS controls to be controlled sanely with a gamepad.)

That's awesome!

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#128

Post by robocat »

ch_123 wrote: post #73
Animats wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a real IBM 3270 keyboard.[1] Note the "Next field" key on the left, and the matching "Previous field" key on the right. The IBM 3270 was a device for filling up forms. The mainframe sent the terminal a form with blanks, and the terminal let the user fill in the blanks. The terminal hardware prevented the user from overwriting the static parts of the form, and could apply some other form constraints, such as nu…

Nitpick: The terminology used by IBM on the 3270 family (including the 3277 whose keyboard you shared) was "Tab" and "Back tab", not "Next field" and "Previous field".

Yes: Page 30 of The Operator's Guide for IBM 3270 Information Display Systems calls it a Tab key.

   Tab also has typamatic capability that allows you to move the cursor quickly from field to field.

  The Back Tab key moves the cursor back to the first character position in an input field. If the cursor is already in the first character position of an input field, and if you press the Back Tab key, the cursor will then move back to the first character position of the preceding input field.
So my guess is that the cursor defaults to being at the start of a field as you navigate, so Tab and Back Tab work as expected. But if you're editing a field and have moved the cursor within the field then Back Tab acts differently.

https://usermanual.wiki/Document/GA2727421OperatorsGuideforI...

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#129

Post by andyjohnson0 »

AndrewStephens wrote: post #124

IBM was legendarily over-managed. This is second-hand but a guy I used to work with told a story of when he interned for a summer at IBM in London during the mid-90s doing what would now be called a QA engineering. At that time everyone wore suits to work but the culture was changing so the interns put in a request to be allowed casual Fridays. Bear in mind that they were locked in a back room somewhere without any c…

I interned at an IBM R&D site in Winchester (UK) for a year in 1988-89 and none of us interns wore suits, or even ties. I don't recall many of the f/t IBMers doing so either. It was pretty informal really.

(Not disputing your story, just providing a different perspective.)

Re: IBM didn't want Microsoft to use the Tab key to move between dialog fields

#130

Post by vincent-manis »

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #52

The thing I find funny here is that MicroSoft in the 80s and early 90s was a scrappy bunch of hackers trying to get something out the door. But over time they've sort of become IBM. Based on the way things have progressed... Microsoft has become IBM. IBM has become CA. Apple has become Microsoft. Oracle has become DEC (if DEC had a few more lawyers.) Amazon has become Oracle.

So who became Xerox? (i.e., brilliant ideas, thrown away at the corporate level)
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