Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 259 posts

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#121

Post by Dylan16807 »

alex43578 wrote: post #79
9dev wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. alex43578 was shifting the goalposts from the point cogman10 was making; I acknowledged what he said, but it was besides the point. An airline charging differently depending on the time ahead of flight is sensible. An airline charging differently depending on the buyer's home address is discrimination.

You said "charging two people for the same route differently" is bad: airlines do that constantly and that's why there's dozens of fare changes, fare buckets, sales, codeshares, etc. Regardless, the bigger point is that businesses already have a ton of levers to move for pricing: sales, loyalty programs, and regular price adjustments. None of those are considered discrimination. Why does the buyer's home address fall…

They meant something more specific by "route".

> sales, loyalty programs, and regular price adjustments. None of those are considered discrimination. Why does the buyer's home address fall into

Because everything you listed applies to everyone equally! Assuming a normal loyalty program anyone can join.

> any service that involves transport, delivery, etc to that address

Shopping at a grocery store doesn't involve that. But sure most forms of charging for transport based on destination are fine. That's different from charging two people differently to go the same place at the same time. "Home address" is just an easy piece of personal info to mention.

(An exception to that most would be like the hospital example, charging more for that specific location inside the general area because the buyer seems desperate.)

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#122

Post by Dylan16807 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #76
rootlocus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The store could make it mandatory to swipe your fidelity care before calculating your prices. They already do something similar with specialized promotions.

If we're including promotions or membership discounts, then coupons fit this definition of price discrimination. And those have existed since the 90s at least.

The problems show up when different people don't have access to the same coupons published by the store. Most coupons are fine.

They haven't had the ability to do the significantly bad kinds of targeting until recently. This is a new problem even if it's similar to old practices at the surface level.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#123

Post by Dylan16807 »

bit1993 wrote: post #102
cowanon77 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an imbalance in leverage and timing though. Dynamic pricing requires a lot of real time and historical data; companies can access and share that information easily, and you as a consumer cannot. Even in areas with multiple competitors, they can (and do) effectively collude by getting their information through data brokers and third parties. I don't have a solution, but we are currently very far away from a f…

When the government actively decides the price of goods and services, it becomes more and more like communism. The government should instead uphold the free market and proactively prevent collusion and monopolies that threaten the free market, this is harder to do in the US because of lobbying though.

> When the government actively decides the price of goods and services

Ok.

Can we get to what this kind of law is actually doing? The simplest version would be roughly "stores need to display prices and only change them once per day". No specific prices are being imposed.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#124

Post by bko »

cogman10 wrote: post #45
clintonb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking of pricing zones—shoppers in Zone A pay a different price than those in Zone B. This makes sense, for example, if shipping costs are higher in Zone B. The bill in question is about per-shopper pricing (e.g, you and I pay different prices in the same store). This is something Lyft and Uber do, but it's not really possible in retail.

> This is something Lyft and Uber do, but it's not really possible in retail. It is possible for retail. For example, you can simply not display the price. You can display a price range. You can use EInk displays which auto-update based on who's approaching the item. And of course it's infinitely possible in an online store. One example of how this is being employed is McDonalds trying to push everyone to use the app…

I think McDonalds dynamic pricing is great. Every time I checkout the app there is some crazy deal. Sure its not always something I want but I'm not necessarily competing w/ the other items on the menu. If there's no deal on something I want, I check BK or similar chains.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#125

Post by DocTomoe »

clintonb wrote: post #13
amazingamazing wrote: post #9

Why grocery stores only? It’s also unclear how this will change anything - don’t the grocery stores in richer areas already charge more? I’ve noticed Whole Foods prices are not the same across all stores even in the same state.

You're thinking of pricing zones—shoppers in Zone A pay a different price than those in Zone B. This makes sense, for example, if shipping costs are higher in Zone B. The bill in question is about per-shopper pricing (e.g, you and I pay different prices in the same store). This is something Lyft and Uber do, but it's not really possible in retail.

Just for clarification: Does this affect intraday price changes, and how much if this is AI vs. 'standard database operations'?

I'm thinking of scenarios such as 'Oh, we're going to have a heatwave between 14:00 and 19:00, let's make popsicles 9 cent more expensive for everyone' or 'hm, that particular brand of soda sells extremely good today, let's hike the price'/'this noodle soup gets new stock later today, let's lower the price to clear out the shelf'

Because with electronic signage, that is very possible.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#126

Post by fzeroracer »

clintonb wrote: post #80
cogman10 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is something Lyft and Uber do, but it's not really possible in retail. It is possible for retail. For example, you can simply not display the price. You can display a price range. You can use EInk displays which auto-update based on who's approaching the item. And of course it's infinitely possible in an online store. One example of how this is being employed is McDonalds trying to push everyone to use the app…

Your plan fails in a few ways. Refreshing the content on an electronic shelf label (ESL) takes about 30 seconds, and multiple people can view a product simultaneously. Unless the store is giving everyone AR glasses, people will notice the price discrepancy. This assumes you have sufficient data to actually recognize a shopper such as facial ID or some form of iBeacon for every single product for which you wish to imp…

> Using in-app discounts is the most likely way to implement this, which I am okay with. Shoppers are willingly trading their data privacy for a discount.

Your mistake is assuming it's a discount, when it's not. For example, Safeway near me charges exorbitant prices for goods which are anywhere from 30-50% lower in the app. What they're doing is the same as your average dark pattern, you're only getting the real price using the app otherwise they charge a no-app fee. And even then you can't tell what the real price is supposed to be, because the app will tailor discounts to your shopping behavior.

Shoppers can and have noticed the price discrepancy [1] which is why this legislation is happening in the first place. If the price isn't the price then the whole basis of capitalism and consumer choice falls apart because there's no way to make a proper determination if Store A is cheaper than Store B.

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/money/questionable-business-...

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#127

Post by bko »

bit1993 wrote: post #88

This is like responding to symptoms and not addressing the root cause. This is something that should be fixed by supply and demand, buyers should have a choice where to buy and sellers should have a choice how to price their products. These problems arise when dealing with a monopoly, that undermines the free market and that's a far worse systemic problem and the root cause of these issues. AI has nothing to do with…

There is no monopoly. Grocers are incredibly competitive and have low single digit margins (~1-3%)

There are things you can do to lower prices like prosecuting theft. In this case technology is part of the solution. Adding red tape and restricting technology will do the opposite.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#128

Post by bko »

cowanon77 wrote: post #93
bit1993 wrote: post #88

This is like responding to symptoms and not addressing the root cause. This is something that should be fixed by supply and demand, buyers should have a choice where to buy and sellers should have a choice how to price their products. These problems arise when dealing with a monopoly, that undermines the free market and that's a far worse systemic problem and the root cause of these issues. AI has nothing to do with…

There is an imbalance in leverage and timing though. Dynamic pricing requires a lot of real time and historical data; companies can access and share that information easily, and you as a consumer cannot. Even in areas with multiple competitors, they can (and do) effectively collude by getting their information through data brokers and third parties. I don't have a solution, but we are currently very far away from a f…

Why can companies access and share information more easily than consumers?

I get about a dozen fliers in the mail every week advertising deals that are surely loss leaders for the grocer. Then there's extreme couponing forums.

Have you worked in a large organization? I can't imagine it's easy to coordinate much less have someone make actual decisions.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#129

Post by irishcoffee »

DocTomoe wrote: post #125
clintonb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking of pricing zones—shoppers in Zone A pay a different price than those in Zone B. This makes sense, for example, if shipping costs are higher in Zone B. The bill in question is about per-shopper pricing (e.g, you and I pay different prices in the same store). This is something Lyft and Uber do, but it's not really possible in retail.

Just for clarification: Does this affect intraday price changes, and how much if this is AI vs. 'standard database operations'? I'm thinking of scenarios such as 'Oh, we're going to have a heatwave between 14:00 and 19:00, let's make popsicles 9 cent more expensive for everyone' or 'hm, that particular brand of soda sells extremely good today, let's hike the price'/'this noodle soup gets new stock later today, let's…

It’s interesting, no matter what the sign says, the cost is determined at the checkout. I think you missed the point.

This is about profiling people buying through apps.

I guess it’s neat someone is trying to do something about grocery prices, this won’t move the needle. Still nice to have in the books.

Now if only the governer could figure out how to get the Key bridge built instead of firing the company and starting over… that would be cool.

“Yeah it’ll be built by 2028!” At this point I doubt it’ll be finished in my lifetime.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#130

Post by muzani »

amazingamazing wrote: post #9

Why grocery stores only? It’s also unclear how this will change anything - don’t the grocery stores in richer areas already charge more? I’ve noticed Whole Foods prices are not the same across all stores even in the same state.

For impact most likely. Dynamic pricing is core to the budget airline industry and such a law would hurt them more, especially with the thin margins. It happens with games too, but the price of games doesn't affect how someone eats.
Post reply on HN