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Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

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Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#121

Post by wqaatwt »

fouc wrote: post #110
827a wrote: post #72

The real problem, which I think the article does a poor job of making clear: Tesla sold millions of cars before the current generation Hardware 4 vehicles with $10,000 full self driving packages which never really materialized convincingly ‘full’ self-driving capability. There’s fair arguments for the HW4 vehicles not having FSD either, maybe because it needs to be supervised or isn’t perfect or whatever. But the HW4…

Seems like HW3 has been pretty good since FSD v12.3+ came out. If we describe HW4 as 99% of the way to true FSD, then HW3 is probably 95% of the way. Though approaching 100% (maybe 2x the human standard) is going to be exponentially harder to get to.

> HW4 as 99% of the way to true FSD

If we describe current LLMs 99% of the way to AGI and full sentience then https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA was probably 90% of the way.

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#122

Post by roenxi »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #115
roenxi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well ... yes. By that logic it is the case. It applies to humans too - if a human slams their car into a concrete wall then the human was still driving the car. They did a bad job of it, but they were in fact driving. A car being driven autonomously doesn't imply much about the quality of that driving. They're still going to make bad decisions and have accidents, just like humans do (a friend of mine died slamming th…

> A car being driven autonomously doesn't imply much about the quality of that driving Only that’s not what they’re selling us - they say autonomous cars are safer than humans, fewer accidents per mile driven, faster reaction times yadda yadda. I think this implies quality and not respecting speed limits is not something that sounds very high-quality. At least not while they have to share the road with humans.

I'm just going to quote myself here:

> (a friend of mine died slamming their car into a tree)

Autonomous cars can run headlong into concrete walls and still be substantially better drivers than humans. There is no inherent contradiction there at all. They can speed and still be more law-abiding than humans too, humans get pretty casual about speed limits. I don't think you've grappled with just how bad humans are at operating rolling tin cans travelling at speeds evolution has not prepared us to move at. We're really bad at it. Autonomous cars aren't ever going to be perfect, they are merely a better alternative than humans.

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#123

Post by bdcravens »

Schiendelman wrote: post #114
bdcravens wrote: post #29

It's not him they're fighting, it's precedence and the impending flood of lawsuits.

Preceden t . Please please let's not change English to conflate those two words.

You're right, thanks for the catch.

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#124

Post by jqpabc123 »

antonvs wrote: post #109

You all don’t understand. FSD works fine as long as you evaluate it 5 years in the future. No I don’t mean 2031, because in 2031 you need to evaluate it in 2036.

FSD will work next year --- perpetually.

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#125

Post by fouc »

Schiendelman wrote: post #113
fouc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like HW3 has been pretty good since FSD v12.3+ came out. If we describe HW4 as 99% of the way to true FSD, then HW3 is probably 95% of the way. Though approaching 100% (maybe 2x the human standard) is going to be exponentially harder to get to.

I'm reminded of the adage about getting 80% of the way through shipping a product, and then doing the other 80%...

Yeah that's what I was referring to, the last 10% takes 90% of the time. Or the difficulty of getting from five 9s to nine 9s.

In this case the final 1% is 200x harder than getting to the initial 95%.

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#126

Post by ModernMech »

827a wrote: post #72

The real problem, which I think the article does a poor job of making clear: Tesla sold millions of cars before the current generation Hardware 4 vehicles with $10,000 full self driving packages which never really materialized convincingly ‘full’ self-driving capability. There’s fair arguments for the HW4 vehicles not having FSD either, maybe because it needs to be supervised or isn’t perfect or whatever. But the HW4…

> the HW4 experience is good enough that I don’t think many HW4 owners are angry

Selection bias. The only people buying Teslas anymore are people who can explain away a Nazi salute. They'll explain away anything bad about HW4 as well.

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#127

Post by Marsymars »

nsowz wrote: post #111
Marsymars wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The speed limit sign reading tech that displays the most recently posted limit on the nav is pretty nifty. (I'd consider that "driver assistance" even if it doesn't physically control the vehicle.)

Oh god, the speed limit sign reading. I was in a rented car (a Ford) and it basically spent the entire trip beeping. I didn’t spend time investigating, as it wasn’t my car, but I hope that can be disabled…

Oh, I actually own a Ford - not sure if that's configurable or different depending on models, but I've never heard a beep related to the sign reads. (Or many beeps in general... the only place I regularly get it to beep is when I'm backing up very close to things.)

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#128

Post by alamortsubite »

lobf wrote: post #96
njovin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a similar issue with Volvo. It occasionally sees a gate track on the ground as a 'hazard' and will hard-brake when slowly backing over it. It's inconsistent but happens regularly.

On the one hand, my 50 year old car (1976 BMW 2002) has very few safety measures, but on the other hand there’s no bullshit like this…

Your car also has a safety feature that the others upstream lack: a curb weight of only 2400 lbs. Which is already an order of magnitude more mass than necessary to move a few human beings around.

Also, by having some skin in the game, my guess is you're a lot more likely to drive it responsibly, which is probably the most effective safety feature of all.

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#129

Post by stahtops »

dlcarrier wrote: post #99
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #71

Why just the $10k? Could you get a full refund? If I order a $12 burrito and you give me a $10 sandwich, I would feel owed my $12 back, not the $2 difference in price.

The reimbursement covers the add-on. It's more like ordering a $10 sandwich and a $2 bag of chips, then not receiving the bag of chips and getting your $2 back.

Some people only bought the sandwich because of the chips. If chips weren't offered they would have bought lunch from someone else across the street.

Re: Tesla owner won $10k in court for Tesla's FSD lies. Tesla is still fighting him

#130

Post by stahtops »

roenxi wrote: post #38
dawnerd wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those YouTubers are all there to make Tesla look good. It’s a grift. The ones that are honest and show the bad side get kicked out of the Tesla club fast and dogpiled on. Also a school zone is one of the most basic things the car should be able to handle. If it can’t do that, it’s not ready for public use.

>Also a school zone is one of the most basic things the car should be able to handle. If it can’t do that, it’s not ready for public use. Humans don't always follow the law driving through school zones. And when humans speed through a school zone, the human is definitely driving the car. Are we ready to let humans drive on public roads? The argument has to go into the magnitude of the problem to get anywhere meaningf…

We require individual humans to be licensed to drive and can revoke that license as needed.
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