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Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

samcollins.blog

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Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#121
post #115

interesting that GPT Image-2 managed to 2-shot this with thinking turned on, I didn't save a copy and it disappeared from my window but I first got a failure very similar to the one in the article, but it saw the issue and said it was going to use a reference image, after which it came out with https://i.imgur.com/hlWpQNT.jpeg

Still missing 49 - humans are safe, for now!

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#122
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not novel in the sense that nobody knew about img2img. It's novel in the sense that nobody thought of using img2img to solve this problem in this way.

It's novel if you never played with img2img, including especially several forms of (text+img)2img. Or, if you never tried editing images by text prompt in recent multimodal LLMs. That said, I spent plenty of time doing both, and yet it would probably take me a while to arrive at this approach. For some reason, the "draw a sketch, have a model flesh it out" approach got bucketed with Stable Diffusion in my mind, and m…

They’re actually quite good at it. I’ve had a number of situations where I’ve wanted to re-render some of my older comics. You can basically tell any SOTA multimodal model (NB, GPT-Image-X) to treat them as storyboards and prompt for a specific style: newprint, crosshatching, monochromatic ink sketch, etc.

Another thing I’ve gotten very used to doing is avoiding the “one-shot” approach. If I generate something and don’t like the results, I bring it into Krita, move things around, redraw some elements, and then send it back in with instructions to just clean it up (remove any smudges or imperfections). The state-of-the-art models can do an astonishing job with that workflow.

https://imgpb.com/eGDJIb

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#123

> Transform this image into a photographed claymation diorama of assorted artisan chocolates and candies […] viewed from a low-angle Side note: whenever I read prompts for image generation, I notice very specific details which the model obviously ignored. Here the chocolates / candies in the last two images look anything but artisanal. They look very "sterile" and mass-produced. The viewing angle is also not accurate…

I believe most detailed prompts are AI generated.

This is 100% true. There are entire nodes/pipelines in programs like ComfyUI that are designed to take a simple prompt and "enhance it" which usually involves making it more verbose, adding detail, etc depending on the target model.

  Original Prompt: "Man with Trapezoid Head"
  
  AI Expansion: 
  Portrait of a man with a trapezoid-shaped head, sharp geometric facial structure, angular jawline wider at the top and narrowing toward the chin, realistic skin texture, detailed pores, dramatic studio lighting, ultra-detailed, 85mm lens, shallow depth of field, dark neutral background, cinematic, photorealistic, 8k resolution.

Note: Most people (outside the generative space) won’t pick up on this but in many cases if don't prompt otherwise, you’ll often end up with a prompt that’s better suited to older, keyword‑based models like Stable Diffusion which rely heavily on specific sets of positive and negative prompt keywords more akin to magical incantations to improve the output.

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#124
post #46

I wonder whether this could be used to fine-tune image models to provide better outputs. Something like this: 1. Algorithmically generate a underdrawing (e.g. place numbers and shapes randomly in the underdrawing) 2. Algorithmically generate a description of the underdrawing (e.g. for each shape, output text like "there is a square with the number three in the top left corner). You might fuzz this by having an LLM re…

This is closer to a world model - kind of similar to how one might use a realistic or semi‑realistic simulation engine to model the environment like GTA in order to train a self-driving model.

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#125
post #85
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That paper’s abstract doesn’t carry its title, to put it mildly.

What part of "Specifically, we define a formal world where hallucination is defined as inconsistencies between a computable LLM and a computable ground truth function. By employing results from learning theory, we show that LLMs cannot learn all the computable functions and will therefore inevitably hallucinate if used as general problem solvers. " doesn't carry the title, to ask mildly?

As with all the works that use too broad a definition of an LLM they prove too much. This work defines an "LLM" as a computable function obtained by applying a finite number of steps of a generic algorithm to an initial computable function.

What they really prove is that it's impossible to extrapolate unconstrained non-continuous function from a finite subset of its values. Good for them, I guess.

It's like saying that the no free lunch theorems proves that LLMs can't be the best optimizers, while it proves (roughly) that the best optimizers don't exists. That is, even people aren't the best optimizers, but we manage somehow, so LLMs can too.

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#126

> Transform this image into a photographed claymation diorama of assorted artisan chocolates and candies […] viewed from a low-angle Side note: whenever I read prompts for image generation, I notice very specific details which the model obviously ignored. Here the chocolates / candies in the last two images look anything but artisanal. They look very "sterile" and mass-produced. The viewing angle is also not accurate…

I wonder how long it took to come up with all this? Because if I wanted a spiral of little "buttons" like the last one at the end (and they don't look very much like sweets) I'd be able to knock that out in Blender in an afternoon, and I'm not very good at Blender.

OP here. It took me an afternoon to try different methods and test the limits. But now we know how it works it’s very fast to create new ones:

1. Prompt to make SVG - review in browser, iterate.

2. Prompt to write image prompt - review in editor, refine

3. Send to Gemini, get image

So maybe 5-10 mins.

I don’t know how to use Blender.

Also this method can be done over WhatsApp/telegram which is another plus over Blender type approach.

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#127
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t agree with that definition of “hallucination”, for starters.

So substitute another phrase, if you prefer. It doesn't change the logic. "Specifically, we define a formal world where bungling is defined as inconsistencies between a computable LLM and a computable ground truth function. By employing results from learning theory, we show that LLMs cannot learn all the computable functions and will therefore inevitably bungle if used as general problem solvers."

Their diagonalization argument applies to any system that uses finite training data. Calling such a system "LLM" is an (unintentional) red herring.

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#128
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> character counting The models now whaste a vast amount of useless neurons memorising the character count the entire English language so that people can ask how many r's are in strawberry and check a tickbox in a benchmark. The architecture cannot efficiently or consistently represent counting letters in words. We should never have forced trained them to do it. This goes for other more important "skills" that are un…

> The models now whaste a vast amount of useless neurons memorising the character count the entire English language No they don’t. They only need to know the character count for each token, and with typical vocabularies having around 250k entries, that’s an insignificant number for all but the tiniest LLMs.

In a very simplified view;

Those "tolkens" humans "count" are translated to a ~2048 (depends on model) floating point vector.

bird => {mamal, english, noun, Vertebrate, aviant} has one r but what if you make it 20% more "french". Is is still 1 r? That could be the word "bird" in french, or it could be a french speaking bird or a bird species common in france.

If nearest neibour distance to the vocabulary of every language makes the vector no longer map to "bird"; then the amount of rs' must change, using a series of trained conditional checks (with some efficiency where languages have some general spelling patterns).

That is such an unreasonable amount of compute, that it is likley faar cheaper, easier and more reliable to train the model to memorise the output:

{"MCP":"python", "content":"len((c for c in 'strawberry' if c='r'))"}

The attention mechanism allow LLMs to learn this kind of absurdly inefficient calculations. But we really shouldn't use LLMs where they're outperformed by trivial existing solutions.

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#129
I've had a lot of success at work breaking down tasks that are supposed to be "done by the agent" into small LLM calls orchestrated deterministically via boring queues and messages. That's why this really resonates with me in a world where we're lured deep into the ecosystem by the model vendors.

At the end of the day we can get so much done just by breaking down a problem into smaller problems.

Re: Using “underdrawings” for accurate text and numbers

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So substitute another phrase, if you prefer. It doesn't change the logic. "Specifically, we define a formal world where bungling is defined as inconsistencies between a computable LLM and a computable ground truth function. By employing results from learning theory, we show that LLMs cannot learn all the computable functions and will therefore inevitably bungle if used as general problem solvers."

Their diagonalization argument applies to any system that uses finite training data. Calling such a system "LLM" is an (unintentional) red herring.

Yeah. IMHO this is the more serious objection.
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