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Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

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Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#121

Post by SilverElfin »

spankalee wrote: post #111
SilverElfin wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Maybe drivers should stop thinking they're the center of the universe and consider pedestrians and bicyclists around them. It's more dangerous to block a bike lane, with the more vulnerable user, than a car lane. Other drivers can wait.

It’s not dangerous to block a bike lane. The bikers can wait. They are fewer in number and inconveniencing them is less problematic. If they’re worried about being vulnerable, they are free to ride at low speeds on the sidewalk, or just not use a bicycle.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#122

Post by amluto »

gambiting wrote: post #80
spankalee wrote: post #59

Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. Given that human drivers stop in bike lanes, Waymo then has a tradeoff: 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic…

>>Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. So to flip it around.....it's not Waymo's fault that they stop in bike lanes, but the fault of traffic enforcement? Is anyone forcing waymos to stop in bike lanes?

Many cities would stop functioning if everyone followed traffic laws — the whole system is built around drivers ignoring many rules. Businesses need deliveries to be unloaded and delivered. Customers need to get where they are going. And many cities do not actually leave space for loading and unloading.

There’s a related issue that will become apparent as more cars drive themselves and take responsibility for their actions: speed limits. If traffic engineers want cars to drive 75mph, they should set a speed limit of 75mph.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#123

Post by Saline9515 »

daemonologist wrote: post #100
Slow_Hand wrote: post #83

As a cyclist and a driver it’s not immediately apparent which Waymo behavior I prefer for passenger dropoffs/pickups. While it’s annoying in the moment to pedal around a parked car, I’m fine with it. However, having a Waymo dropping off clear of the bike lane sounds good, until the exiting passenger accidentally doors a cyclist who isn’t prepared for that possibility. I suppose I’d rather suffer the inconvenience of…

Going around a parked car is not merely an inconvenience, it introduces an extra risk of being hit from behind (obviously you should check over your shoulder before moving into the lane, but this is the imperfect real world, and even the act of checking over your shoulder is a small risk) or by a vehicle pulling out of a cross street which didn't see you through the stopped car. However I agree that there isn't an ob…

It's also possible to use a feature that is present on the bikes, even if rarely or never used by urban cyclists: braking and waiting for the passenger to drop off, before continuing for your destination.

Something car drivers and pedestrians do, usually.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#124

Post by teachrdan »

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #112

As a pedestrian, I fear cyclists the most. Please do block the bike lane while I am getting in and out so cyclists won't hit me. I have been almost killed by cyclists many more times than cars. My office building hires someone with a sign to stand in the crosswalk in front of the building where cyclists almost never respect the crosswalk. Cyclists here regularly ignore red lights and also go the wrong way on streets…

You are either very paranoid or very bad at math. The odds of a pedestrian getting killed by a cyclist are minuscule. The best data I could find making an apples-to-apples comparison showed that pedestrians are *160 times* more likely to be killed by a car than a bicyclist.

https://transport.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-11/collisio...

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#125

Post by alistairSH »

cyanydeez wrote: post #46
alistairSH wrote: post #43

How do other countries solve this? I have a fuzzy memory of lanes being shared in the UK. Overlapping bike, parking, bus stops, etc. Not claiming that's better, only that's what I recall. I don't recall what Amsterdam does, but the bike lanes were mostly separated, so I imagine they have dedicated short-term parking. They also have a good light rail system in the city, so much less need for taxis.

does it matter? we already gave cars unnecessary leeway in designing cities; should we continue bowing to the least efficient mode of transport because a technology cant actually replace thw already extravagent allowances it is afforded?

Assuming they've solved the problem, fully or partially, then of course it matters.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#126

Post by Saline9515 »

avidiax wrote: post #104
Slow_Hand wrote: post #83

As a cyclist and a driver it’s not immediately apparent which Waymo behavior I prefer for passenger dropoffs/pickups. While it’s annoying in the moment to pedal around a parked car, I’m fine with it. However, having a Waymo dropping off clear of the bike lane sounds good, until the exiting passenger accidentally doors a cyclist who isn’t prepared for that possibility. I suppose I’d rather suffer the inconvenience of…

You can get doored on either side of the car, and when you are forced to pass, you have to enter the traffic lane, which pressures you to maintain speed. Whereas in the bike lane, you can slow down a bit anticipating that a door may open. Waymo does at least warn the occupants if there's a vehicle or bicycle approaching.

It is well known that by stopping, the cyclist will burn and be consumed in flammes in mere seconds.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#127

Post by Ekaros »

cosmotic wrote: post #118
SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cities who want to keep cars out of bike lanes should stop offering “mom says we have bike lanes at home” repainting of streets. Create a curb and raise the bike lanes. It’s the only safe solution. I understand this is not realistic in a lot of scenarios but it is basically the only way you can achieve actual safety short of cement separators at the road level, which is basically a curb anyway. There’s just no realit…

I've seen people park in these curbed bike lanes too, completely blocking it off.

Seems like they need to fenced off. Would also prevent jaywalking so in general increase safety of pedestrians forcing them to cross only at intersections.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#128

Post by Shadowed_ »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #96
spankalee wrote: post #59

Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. Given that human drivers stop in bike lanes, Waymo then has a tradeoff: 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic…

Cities who want to keep cars out of bike lanes should stop offering “mom says we have bike lanes at home” repainting of streets. Create a curb and raise the bike lanes. It’s the only safe solution. I understand this is not realistic in a lot of scenarios but it is basically the only way you can achieve actual safety short of cement separators at the road level, which is basically a curb anyway. There’s just no realit…

Or they could fine them. And increase fine for each repetition so rich can't just pay to be jerks.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#129

Post by expedition32 »

spankalee wrote: post #59

Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. Given that human drivers stop in bike lanes, Waymo then has a tradeoff: 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic…

But AI apologists told me that we should allow driverless cars because they are safer...

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#130

Post by ghaff »

Stratoscope wrote: post #103

I won't comment on the pick up / drop off situation, but another important scenario is right turns. In California, drivers are legally required to merge into the bike lane when making a right turn. This is for the safety of the bicyclists, to avoid the dreaded "right hook" collision. Dylan Taylor, a beloved Menlo-Atherton High School football coach, was killed last year in one of these collisions: https://www.almanac…

In the nearest fairly large city, there's a (sometimes separated) bike lane, a bus lane, traffic lane, and turning lane which all intersect to various degrees. It's all clear as mud especially after dark when both bicycles and pedestrians are frequently darting into traffic from behind cars without lights. I'm just surprised there aren't more accidents.
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