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ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

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Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#121

Post by brookst »

aa-jv wrote: post #56
jstummbillig wrote: post #25

> By betting on extreme ultraviolet lithography long before it worked, ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips. Makes one wonder: Would we be much better off of worse off if we reshaped society to do more of things, where a new technology is unlikely to work but highly beneficial in the limits? Would we sooner have 10 additional ASMLs or waste a lot of resources?

We could have more ASML's immediately if we eradicate the desire to covet technology for one in-group, over another. > reshaped society Invalidate all of ASML's patents = get cheaper chips, sooner. It is intellectual property which gives some of us the ability to build these things and sell them to others - get rid of this phony concept and we can have more nice things...

And if you had done that 10 years ago we wouldn’t hve EUV at all. You’re proposing ending future development to make today’s products cheaper.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#122

Post by robotresearcher »

pwndByDeath wrote: post #119
robotresearcher wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.5 million moving parts sounds unlikely. Parts, sure. Moving parts, I’m skeptical.

In a vehicle, all the parts are moving

I’m gonna go with the conventional frame of reference: parts moving with respect to each other.

Otherwise we might as well say the ASML machine is in orbit around the galactic center.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#123

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

pfortuny wrote: post #106
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that US nuclear subs actually take the crown, but the design is so secret, that there's no way to verify.

An aircraft carrier would like a word.

Depends. Are the aircraft counted?

In either case, the secret design has the same effect, but sub secrets are the top of the top of top secret. Spies that leak sub secrets, spend a long time in Leavenworth.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#124

Post by m3kw9 »

kens wrote: post #82

Is the ASML machine actually the world's most complex machine under some metric, or is this a claim that someone made up? I.e., did someone actually compare the ASML machine to the Space Shuttle, LHC, Internet, and so forth and show that it is more complex under some definition? (I've done various historical questions, so I'm sensitive to how statements are sourced.) An orthogonal question is what makes sense as a me…

Arguably and it can easily win

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#125

Post by IAmBroom »

scotty79 wrote: post #30

I'm pretty sure that's the most bizarre light source on the planet: https://youtu.be/B2482h_TNwg?t=929

(The video describes the actual lithographic laser.)

And it's a source of serious hazardous waste products. It's a tin-ion laser, operating in an ultra-pure vacuum, on an unbelievably high-energy band (even laser "lines" have definable bandwidths). There's really not a lot of wiggle room in materials selection for the laser.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#126

Post by irdc »

moffkalast wrote: post #10
irdc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s what the likes of AMD with their chiplet design have been doing. There’s also the issue of older process nodes not being profitable enough anymore, which explaines why at the height of the chip supply crunch older ARM chips were in short supply but there was ample stock of the 20nm feature-sized RP2040.

This is gonna sound super dumb, but I'm not sure how they aren't being profitable if there are shortages, just price things beyond break even level? The average person can't even tell the difference between a Core 5 and a Core 5 Ultra, you can practically sell them at the same price and I'm not even sure they'd notice when actually using them. The performance jump is relatively minor and the bottlenecks are elsewhere…

Part of those prices aren't something the manufacturer can adjust. Whether you're building 60nm or 20nm chips, you need pretty much the same silicon wafers, the same ultra pure water, the same chemicals and the same personnel. And as a bonus, you're not gonna be getting as many of the same chips on that wafer.

And sure, a chip layout can be shrunk; but that requires a whole new recertification cycle.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#127

Post by glasss »

_nhacker wrote: post #52

Hey, author of the piece here. Glad people seem to have enjoyed it. If you're looking for more sources on ASML/EUV I put together a bibliography of things I looked at while writing the piece https://neilhacker.com/2026/04/28/asml-article-bibliography/

Great piece, I definitely enjoyed reading through it.

I don't have a question about ASML or the machine in particular, but I am curious about your thoughts on something: I've recently noticed a fair bit of media (blogs, YouTube videos, TikTok clips) about the same thing: this machine and the EUV process. Do you think interest in this topic is just a coincidence or did something happen to cause these different content creators and authors to do a piece on it at around the same time? What caused you to do a piece on this now?

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#128

Post by kens »

robotresearcher wrote: post #118
kens wrote: post #82

Is the ASML machine actually the world's most complex machine under some metric, or is this a claim that someone made up? I.e., did someone actually compare the ASML machine to the Space Shuttle, LHC, Internet, and so forth and show that it is more complex under some definition? (I've done various historical questions, so I'm sensitive to how statements are sourced.) An orthogonal question is what makes sense as a me…

2.5 million moving parts sounds unlikely. Parts, sure. Moving parts, I’m skeptical.

That claim is from NASA: https://www3.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/pdf/566250main_SHUTTLE...

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#129

Post by IAmBroom »

amelius wrote: post #80
namero999 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even close.

Gemini tells me: calling an ASML machine a "giant refrigerator" is actually a pretty sophisticated observation. While it doesn't store milk, a massive portion of that plumbing is dedicated to thermal management and vacuum systems. (...)

"and vacuum systems" is the key here. The refrigeration is a well-solved issue.

There's impeller-type vacuum engines, which is what most people think about.

Then there's multiple-stage fans, where the purpose is to overcome random atomic vectors: an atom flying the wrong direction is more likely than not to hit a fan blade and bounce vaguely toward the output direction. Extra stages increase the odds of outward vectors, instead of rebounding off walls in some unhelpful direction. These are needed when the pressure is already so low that gas atoms don't hit each other, so they act like particles instead of gases.

There's also molecular getter pumps, that are reactive coatings inside the vacuum. Their purpose is to permanently adhere any stray molecules that tend to cling to surfaces (like H2O), so they won't eventually decouple and ruin the vacuum.

Each is used to reach increasing levels of "vacuum", which is more like "single-molecule denial gates" at that point.

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