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MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

blog.meshcore.io

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Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#121

Post by fragmede »

montyanne wrote: post #61
lukeasch21 wrote: post #15

I would absolutely encourage everyone reading this to check out Reticulum [1] if you haven't already. I believe the base project might be in need of new maintainers(?) at the moment and the main dev has some very strong takes, but it is a very well-thought out approach to distributed networking at the protocol layer. The existing implementations out there include a desktop app which can function over the internet (IP…

I spent an entire month trying to build something with Reticulum, but there just isn’t great tooling for dealing with the protocol. Makes for a pretty infuriating devex if you’re just trying to build your app. Neat concept but so many footguns that (imo) it’s not really sustainable to try bootstrapping. Specifically, I had tried to port the stack to Rust no-std to use on nrf52 LoRA devices to use/abuse the existing M…

Why is Reticulum and MeshCore the issue here and not rust?

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#122

Post by axegon_ »

nonethewiser wrote: post #40

>We have always been wary of AI generated code, but felt everyone is free to do what they want and experiment, etc. But, one of our own, Andy Kirby, decided to branch out and extensively use Claude Code, and has decided to aggressively take over all of the components of the MeshCore ecosystem: standalone devices, mobile app, web flasher and web config tools. >And, he’s kept that small detail a secret - that it’s all…

Disagree: I applaud them for doing this. Anyone that says they've reviewed the 1000 lines of slop any AI has spit out is simply lying to everyone and even potentially themselves and has never done a single extensive code review in their life. Reading 1000 lines of text is one thing, reading and analyzing the complexity implications and edge cases in code - no chance. The "I've reviewed the slop" response is the reasons why 0 days and leaks are happening more than ever: because no one really reads the code cause "I vibe-coded it". An extensive and comprehensive code review may take days, and no slopper has ever done that. I'll get a 100 line pr and going over it can easily take hours, especially when something looks wrong and I need to test it. And it's a good reason why I'd never trust the "You are absolutely correct, apologies for the oversight, here's a revised version:"

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#123

Post by cge »

SchemaLoad wrote: post #83
Trannosaur wrote: post #2

What is it with mesh projects and having these super draconian trademark enforcers? Meshtastic is the same. One of the main reasons I got interested in MeshCore was reading the Meshtastic trademark rules and just finding them... really really over the top.

I get the feeling the culture in radio is just not the same as regular open source. The free unrestricted sharing of things is an unusual quirk in the world rather than the norm.

In my experience, amateur radio (both licensed and license-free) and 3d printing both seem to have cultural perspectives on open source that differ considerably from the regular open source software community.

But while in 3d printing, outside of hardware, that difference often feels confused (eg, I've seen the Multiboard creator post compliments online about models that blatantly violate his own license), in radio the difference often feels hostile. You have OpenGD77, for example, with its 'we were never GPL' rug-pull that was likely illegal (they had outside contributions) [1]. You have Meshcore with its 'we are open source, except...', and, as you can see in this thread, a difficulty actually finding parts of the code. You have the heavy cultural push against uSDX (seemingly open hardware+source) toward truSDX (DRM-encumbered), and what seems like the quiet acceptance of things like QMX, where you can solder together a radio with DRM that prevents you from installing your own firmware. You even have digital modes that are legally required to be publicly documented, and actually aren't in any meaningful way: VARA FM is probably the worst offender [2], but even modes that are in-crowd enough to be advertised in FCC license exam questions are often effectively proprietary and legally dubious.

What's particularly foreign to me about the culture is that oftentimes, much of the community seems to support behavior that seems malicious from an open source perspective, and attack the open source proponents.

[1]: https://hackmd.io/@ajorg/opengd77-is-closed [2]: https://themodernham.com/reverse-engineering-vara-fm-part-1-...

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#124

Post by _djo_ »

bigiain wrote: post #77
randerson wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its optional but it helps to see where nodes are on a map, and would be useful in (for example) a search & rescue operation.

"useful in (for example) a search & rescue" I can't read that without assuming the real intent is to deliver bombs accurately, but the startup pitching it knows that'd get bad press, and the investors all know exactly what it really means...

Meshtastic/MeshCore have nothing valuable to offer in terms of delivering bombs accurately. Moreover, militaries already have access to much more robust radio messaging hardware and protocols for data and location transmission.

The main reason both Meshtastic and MeshCore have location data as a part of the protocol is because they emerged from the Ham community which has always taken its role in search and rescue seriously, and because it also appealed early on for other off-grid uses like hiking.

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#125

Post by RobotToaster »

atomicthumbs wrote: post #89
amatecha wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the opposite, tons of ppl in the meshtastic community (Discord) berate amateur radio operators. I stopped even discussing the subject because of how much derision I observed or was subjected to. Lots of insults and nasty jokes in passing as soon as the topic even comes up whatsoever. Kinda like your post, actually - offhanded derogatory remarks about an entire group of people solely because of the hobby they…

is it because amateur radio operators legally have standards they have to comply with?

Kinda, most hams are very rhadamanthine about following every tiny rule to the letter, or their even stricter interpretation of the spirit. The type of people who complain about young people not joining the hobby while insisting on maintaining strict licensing rules and tests. It's very much the polar opposite of hacker ethic.

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#126

Post by fragmede »

toyg wrote: post #66
jimnotgym wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an amateur radio licence and I agree. One reason I rarely operate... I always found it interesting how many useful little apps hams write, keep them closed source and then...die.

Could it be because of the history of radio and early electronics being full of inventors getting ripped off by unscrupulous parties...?

Hurt people hurt people, as they say. The entire field is held back because of trauma. "I could invent something amazing but get screwed out of it because someone else has money and lawyers" is just no way to live. The problem for radio is I could invent the most magical amazing transmitter, but it's worth absolutely nothing if there's no corresponding receiver. Which is to say, open standards are everything. Meshtastic/MeshCore/etc are interesting because they're open. It doesn't have to be. Off-grid mesh communication is a solved problem, just buy a GoTenna. Problem is it's proprietary. But it works, with a whole lot less drama.

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#127

Post by cheschire »

fooqux wrote: post #76
forkerenok wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of entry points available now [0], and I get thousands of announcements every day. https://rmap.world/ It's so much fun with little pages, message boards and random people hitting you up for a chat. I brought up my own transport node and propagation node too to contribute to the mesh.

I'd love to get a node working just for fun. But it also seems like a waste since I'm extremely rural. The closest node is 200+ miles away. The chances of seeing any other device but my own connect to it seem slim. Is there still a reason to do this?

It works over TCP too. No need for radio hijinx.

So you basically eliminate futzing around with the hard parts until you understand the reticulum network itself.

Basically work your way down the OSI model instead of working your way up it.

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#128

Post by fragmede »

toyg wrote: post #68
queenkjuul wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All meshtastic code is GPL, the name "meshtastic" is owned by the company that developed it. You can use any of the code, you can't use their name outside their rules. This is absolutely no different than, say, Firefox. The trademark policy is very permissable and you don't even need their permission to use the name on a commercial product. I think it's totally sensible for the organization to want to have some level…

Nitpicking, but IIRC, Wi-Fi was born largely as a marketing effort rather than a technical one. Interoperability was an afterthought.

That's overstated. IEEE 802.11 started it all, and they're a standards body. The point of making a standard is to interoperate. Early implementations had problems with interoperability, yes, but interoperability was central to the ecosystem. "Wifi", as in the Wi-fi Alliance was absolutely a marketing thing because need marketing and branding to get consumer adoption but there was also a certification process to it that was a technical process and without that, it wouldn't have worked.

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#129

Post by adammarples »

jonah wrote: post #54
adammarples wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which frequency do you get? Does it matter?

It matters legally. Different countries allow unlicensed use on different frequencies. Look up which is correct for your location.

Sadly there seems to be only one or two people in the uk on the reticulum network, I looked on rmap. Given these things have a range of maybe 8km I don't think that for all intents and purposes that it really exists yet.

Re: MeshCore development team splits over trademark dispute and AI-generated code

#130

Post by alnwlsn »

Levitating wrote: post #81
alnwlsn wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got to participate in a game that used Meshtastic and GPS where you walk around a large camp and "capture" different regions. It worked great for that and was a lot of fun. If there ever where a more serious situation where my life depended on one of these meshes, I would be feeling pretty uneasy. They are absolutely not reliable enough to even consider such a thing. I suppose they might be better than nothing. To…

> I got to participate in a game that used Meshtastic and GPS Can you name the game? Meshtastic has got me thinking about that kind of stuff.

It was just something a friend of mine came up with - we called it "Area Capture" or something (and was ironically, mostly vibe-coded).

There were 4 or 5 "color" teams. Each one carries a meshtastic node, and they all report to a central server back at base. The play field was roughly a square mile divided up into a grid of smaller squares. If you walk into one and it's past the cooldown time, it claims it for your team. Most squares at the end of two hours wins. The server would send out updates over meshtastic also: "Blue captures H12" "Red has 18", etc. If you were at the base station, you got to see it all play out live on a big map.

There was another one played at night which was a hide and seek game / capture the flag sort of game. It would tell the seekers some limited information about the seekers, and each side had special functions they could use. Hiders could "go invisible" or fake their location for a certain time. Seekers could call a limited number of "drone strikes" on different squares. The game ends when either the hiders are caught, or they make it to a specific target location.

Lots of possibility for that sort of thing with Meshtastic. I guess either could have run on a phone since now even rural camping areas have decent cell coverage these days, but that's not quite as impressive.

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