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Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

bbc.com

121–130 of 218 posts

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#121
post #113
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother" is indeed an overstatement if you believe, as Donald Winnicott did, that there's something qualitatively advantageous about what a mother can provide, namely breastfeeding. Bottle-feeding, if done in an attuned, consistent, and emotionally present way, can support the same psychological processes as nursing does, but it is certainly less l…

You are still ignoring the only distinction I made - the one between nurturing and nursing. I always understood them as having widely accepted distinct meanings, and the author of the article seems to follow it too. You can either argue that their understanding of 'nurturing' is wrong, or that men can't nurture as well as women, without conflating the two. You can't have it both ways. Labeling it as an 'overstatement…

The author does not lay out their definition of nurturing explicitly. The most complete definition I can derive from the article is that nurturing is engaged caregiving marked by responsiveness and physical closeness that is supported by hormonal changes in the caregiver.

They have nothing to say about nursing other than that it involves oxytocin release (presumably an instance of nurturing).

In your short comment, you didn't make any attempt at determination beyond saying the names "nurturing and protection" and "birthing and nursing". OK, so what is the distinction? Are you claiming that birthing and nursing are mechanical acts that secure existence of the organism, but fail to secure some other thing that is called nurturing and protection? Or are birthing and nursing mere instances of a homogenous nurturing and a homogenous protection, and so one's quota for nurturing and protection are filled in the same way experience points fill up in a video game?

So it's the opposite: your OP and I are the only ones here making a concrete distinction between nursing and nurturing (although your OP didn't really say much, either).

Like I said, Donald Winnicott explores this question at length. Unfortunately he is not a good Marxist who historicizes these categories; he works squarely in post-war British society and so obviously has his limits. But he has the courage to criticize the emptiness of medical empiricism and the fear of determinateness of people like the article's author.

Here's Winnicott in The Child, the Family, and the Outside World:

> The infant who has had a thousand goes at the breast is evidently in a very different condition from the infant who has been fed an equal number of times by the bottle; the survival of the mother is more of a miracle in the first case than in the second. I am not suggesting that there is nothing that the mother who is feeding by bottle can do to meet the situation. Undoubtedly she gets played with by her infant, and she gets the playful bite, and it can be seen that when things are going well the infant almost feels the same as if there is breast feeding. Nevertheless there is a difference. In psychoanalysis, where there is time for a gathering together of all the early roots of the full-blown sexual experience of adults, the analyst gets very good evidence that in a satisfactory breast feed the actual fact of taking from part of the mother’s body provides a ‘blue-print’ for all types of experience in which instinct is involved.

Personally, this aligns with my own observations of my daughter. The sensuous conflict of breastfeeding is a negotiation of the psychic and physical line between self and other where everything is at stake and desires are understood and worked out at the level of the skin. It's practically impossible to make a bottle (or anyone/anything else!) fulfill this function.

Anyway, Winnicott goes on in great detail for chapters. Also relevant is a draft of a talk he gave titled This Feminism, which is probably more relevant to the underlying tensions in these comments:

> This is the most dangerous thing I have done in recent years. Naturally, I would not have actually chosen this title, but I am quite willing to take whatever risks are involved and to go ahead with the making of a personal statement. May I take it for granted that man and woman are not exactly the same as each other, and that each male has a female component, and each female has a male component? I must have some basis for building a description of the similarities and differences that exist between the sexes. I have left room here for an alternative lecture should I find that this audience does not agree to my making any such basic assumption. I pause, in case you claim that there are no differences.

Again, he's unfortunately not interested in how psychic development might be a historically limited category; he naturalizes "nurturing" (he doesn't use this word often, actually), but at least he acknowledges the concrete limitations of mother and fathers (and all the other characters) as they actually exist. And he does this without ever invoking the name of a hormone once.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for women it's natural? How convenient

It's amazing coincidence how the two genders have biological features that together support life. You should check it out sometime.

As the biological features of slavers and slaves put together towards sustaining a plantation.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#123
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah. As an adult man with five kids, two of them infants, the most natural thing in the world is for them to be present in almost every second of my life. It’s not difficult at all. Minutes after birth, naked baby was on my naked chest, and bonding started. This never felt contrary to my instinct.

Ok, you may consider it easy after 5, and kudos to you, but kids are definitely not “not difficult.” I agree that it’s the most natural thing, and I consider most of my time spent elsewhere to be a waste, but our youngest is very active and worrying about her wellbeing for extended periods is definitely exhausting!

I was unclear. I meant it's not difficult to feel nurturing towards them and form a bond. That's what I thought the OP meant about being difficult.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#124

Not to the direct thesis of the article, but I want to share one absolute 180 I had after having kids. Before kiddos I took the apriori belief that it would kinda suck. The belief was unassailable because I thought, evolutionarily, if it was fun to have kids it wouldn't be fun to make them - otherwise we'd endure unfun "making" because we know the having would be fun. I know now how stupid that was on many levels. Ju…

Ah I wish I could agree. I've found having kids to be a major challenge. Maybe I just need to wait for them to get a little older.

I also agree.

"Making kids" is fun, duh.

Raising kids, however, can be very challenging in all sorts of ways. Physically, mentally, socially, etc. I became aware of just how much sleep deprivation affected me and for the sake of myself & my family I just sacrificed everything else to ensure I got good quality sleep. Fortunately, I was helped in this and I made damn sure everyone was supported when I was awake.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#125
post #12

> that men have all the necessary biological wiring to be "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother This seems like an overstatement - man can't give birth to babies (which involves transfer of the mothers biome to the baby) or feed babies (which typically involves lactation).

Men and trans women actually can feed babies. It's just a matter of hormones. The line between genders is more blurry than you'd think.

Whatever scant liquids these males happen to squeeze out is insufficient for feeding, and is a risk to the infant.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#126

Not to the direct thesis of the article, but I want to share one absolute 180 I had after having kids. Before kiddos I took the apriori belief that it would kinda suck. The belief was unassailable because I thought, evolutionarily, if it was fun to have kids it wouldn't be fun to make them - otherwise we'd endure unfun "making" because we know the having would be fun. I know now how stupid that was on many levels. Ju…

Ah I wish I could agree. I've found having kids to be a major challenge. Maybe I just need to wait for them to get a little older.

Me too. I'm an active father, love my daughter and don't regret our choice. But damn I would never opt to go through this again and can't wait until she's a little older. I see parents having orderly lunches in restaurants with their older children and it just seems like the most beautiful and civilized thing in the world.

The whole experience is too much noise and not enough signal to me.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#127
Starting from marriage, men are changing to the less manly direction. But there is a confounding factor: higher testosterone level or sensitivity causes specific distance from family care, so it stays high longer.

Personally, I experienced a 10% drop in my 1rep max in squat after each of my two children.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#128

Starting from marriage, men are changing to the less manly direction. But there is a confounding factor: higher testosterone level or sensitivity causes specific distance from family care, so it stays high longer. Personally, I experienced a 10% drop in my 1rep max in squat after each of my two children.

Yah. But did you skip leg day to take your lady to the hospital ?

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of ancient cultures were collectivist if small. In some cases, matriarchal, in some cases, sex was "free" because the village owned the kids, and so establishing paternity was not as important because the burden was shared.

How do youvarrive at matruarchal while most male mammals display hormonal harem bloat? If nature blows you up into body building brute once you have a family, does that not indicate a clear pyramid of force and a violence monopoly? PS: prediction power and testable.. could be science where it not for utopist airsuperiority

Males looking like body builders is not something observed in any non western nom modern culture.

Tribes tend to have thin men. They dont have big bulky muscles. Agricultural subsistence cultures tend to have thin men.

They can be violent all the same. Just that bulky look is modern male aesthetic.

Re: Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are you proposing that kids need other than nurturing?

Structure

Moms provide structure in "stereotypical" families. Not dads. Moms force bed time, vegetables, homework, cleaning the room.

But also not to infants.

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