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Not all elementary functions can be expressed with exp-minus-log

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Re: Not all elementary functions can be expressed with exp-minus-log

#121
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree, it makes them anything but elementary. I am honestly not even sure if there is a finite constructible basis of the functions that can express any solution of single-variable integer polynomials. And for multivariate polynomials, the roots are uncomputable due to MRDP theorem.

It is not known, and the model problem for this is Hilbert's 13th [1]. Nonetheless, "elementary function" is a technical term dating back to the 19th century; it's very much not a general adjective whose synonym is "basic". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_thirteenth_problem

Elementary function is also a general English phrase that can very much be used to represent the functions on a scientific calculator.

Re: Not all elementary functions can be expressed with exp-minus-log

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct, it is undecidable by Richardson's theorem [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson%27s_theorem

that result does not apply for EML: EML doesn't have the | . | absolute value function, a prerequisite for Richardson's theorem.

Yes it does; you can build the absolute value as sqrt(x²), and sqrt(x) and x² are both constructible using eml.

Re: Not all elementary functions can be expressed with exp-minus-log

#123
I wish i had seen this a few days ago i spent days on this before arriving at the following:

It’s completely wrong, for multiple reasons.

First, and immediately, none of the derived total functions are the functions they appear to be, because they are all partial functions.

Worse than that the domain over which these trees are defined is undecidable by Richardson. You can encode Hilbert’s 10th with elementary functions. Which means you can’t algorithmically decide if a tree evaluates to zero so you never know if ln(y) is undefined

So the central claim is done right off the bat.

Secondly and probably more importantly, these trees have exponential blow up problems because even fairly shallow trees involve tetrations of e that don’t cancel. Even in float64 you can‘t add 800+800 without overflow. Clamping it just gives you wrong answers and clamped exp A) isn’t elementary and B) gives bounded growth so can’t generate all elementary functions.

The consequences for his claimed practical application is disastrous. the loss function is NaN everywhere once you get to around depth 6 in his trees. If you clamp it you just get a flat plateau. Even if you had infinite precision the gradient would be unusable and wouldn’t converge.

As a second note, he frequently in the paper talks about using positive reals as inputs. First, positive reals aren’t even part of his generating set (and if they are his whole central claim is wrong, it has uncountably many constants), but even if they are, fundamentally his operations are complex, and you have subtraction so it is not hard to construct trees that should be total but which never the less are undefined at undecideably many points.

Using extended reals doesn’t save it either. There are just different undefined values that lead to undecideability.

None of these arguments are really specific to EML either. Any binary operator that hopes to generate elementary functions must include exp and ln, must be partial and must be able to encode hilbert’s 10th. There is no fix for this.

You might ask why his tests didn’t find any of this but if you look at his code, they do. He just carefully restricts them to a narrow domain where they happen to work and even then he does things like drop imaginary components and filters out undefined results. He doesn‘t even really hide this in the paper, he just dismisses them as implementation details that can be fixed but the problems are structural

So what we are left with is a generator that can generate exp(x) cleanly and essentially nothing else.

Re: Not all elementary functions can be expressed with exp-minus-log

#124

The original article explicitly acknowledged this limitation, that while in "the classical differential-algebraic setting, one often works with a broader notion of elementary function, defined relative to a chosen field of constants and allowing algebraic adjunctions, i.e., adjoining roots of polynomial equations," the author works with the less general definition. Neither the present article, nor the original one ha…

Yes, this article is kicking in open doors, the original article was quite clear about the scope. The present article could rather have spent time arguing why this isn't like NAND gate functional completeness. I would have thought the differences lie in the other direction: not that trees of EML and 1 can describe too little, but that they can describe too much already. It's decidable whether two NAND circuits implem…

It has more problems. See my other comment in this thread.

Re: Not all elementary functions can be expressed with exp-minus-log

#125

The original article explicitly acknowledged this limitation, that while in "the classical differential-algebraic setting, one often works with a broader notion of elementary function, defined relative to a chosen field of constants and allowing algebraic adjunctions, i.e., adjoining roots of polynomial equations," the author works with the less general definition. Neither the present article, nor the original one ha…

> Odrzywolek's result is immediately obvious This may or may not be true; but the burden of proof should not lay with the reader. Please provide (in absence of which every reader can draw their own conclusions) a reference which simultaneously: 1) predates Odrzywolek's result 2) and demonstrates the other unary and binary operations typically tacitly assumed can be expressed in terms of a single binary operation and…

His derivations are genuinely pretty, but it isn’t a result when everything he claims is actually just wrong.
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