The Fight • Hacker News Board

Re: The Fight

#121

Post by oblivion » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 12:18 PM UTC

xianshou wrote: post #105

ForrestN wrote: post #91

This, as any would be, is certainly a valid way to respond to a brush with death. But implying that this is somehow a lesson to be learned by everyone, suggesting that others should live their life this way, seems misguided to me in context. Contemplating your mortality shouldn't necessarily convince you to double down on your current priorities (especially if those priorities are centered around banal platitudes lik…

The crux of your argument is the claim that, if the universe becomes a field of equidistant neutrinos, no action or thought in the meantime matters. The implicit assumption behind this view is that events only matter to the extent that they leave a legacy. In particular, it asserts that things only have ultimate meaning if they extend to temporal infinity. I believe that how one reacts to Curtis's post, and to your s…

"Does his epiphany matter? If you believe that his epiphany does matter, you also believe in the meaning of temporary things - of what leaves an impression, but not a legacy."

There are two things here I'd like to comment. First, the question is incomplete, it can be either "does his epiphany matter to the man?" or "does his epiphany matter to the reader?".

The first version has the obvious answer "Yes", of course it matters for him, he doesn't know he'll die soon, nor does he care at that moment.

For the second version the answer, for me at least, is also "Yes", but for a different reason than the one you give. I say his result matters because now we know (we'll we don't theoretically as he didn't get to tell the world) that the question has a solution which means that somebody somewhere will be able to rediscover. I think knowing there is a solution is a huge win for any hard question because you know there is a purpose in your search.

Re: The Fight

#122

Post by precisioncoder » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 12:36 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #97

huhtenberg wrote: post #3

It's all good, but if you haven't had a close relative or a close friend die or come close to it, then no amount of preaching - Live now! Fight the momentum! Live it to the fullest! - is going to do any good. You have to experience it, unfortunately there's no other way. My dad died suddenly two years ago. Just like that - here he is, poof, here he is not. I tried to capture the feelings in a written form and then ha…

I agree that words cannot convey the experience of loss. But I don't think that means that you can't do some good with it. The trick for me has been to try to exemplify and communicate the lessons I've learned, not the process by which I learned them. Being more joyful in the moment. Being more compassionate in the face of suffering. Facing death and loss squarely when it does come up. Declining to participate in the…

Thank you for posting that, I hope that I can die with as much dignity.

Re: The Fight

#123

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 12:40 PM UTC

xianshou wrote: post #105

ForrestN wrote: post #91

This, as any would be, is certainly a valid way to respond to a brush with death. But implying that this is somehow a lesson to be learned by everyone, suggesting that others should live their life this way, seems misguided to me in context. Contemplating your mortality shouldn't necessarily convince you to double down on your current priorities (especially if those priorities are centered around banal platitudes lik…

The crux of your argument is the claim that, if the universe becomes a field of equidistant neutrinos, no action or thought in the meantime matters. The implicit assumption behind this view is that events only matter to the extent that they leave a legacy. In particular, it asserts that things only have ultimate meaning if they extend to temporal infinity. I believe that how one reacts to Curtis's post, and to your s…

[deleted]

Re: The Fight

#124

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 1:56 PM UTC

brianchu wrote: post #118

xianshou wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of your argument is the claim that, if the universe becomes a field of equidistant neutrinos, no action or thought in the meantime matters. The implicit assumption behind this view is that events only matter to the extent that they leave a legacy. In particular, it asserts that things only have ultimate meaning if they extend to temporal infinity. I believe that how one reacts to Curtis's post, and to your s…

ForrestN is not (as I interpret) saying that nothing matters. Just that evaluating the "matter-ness" of something based on some objective like making a difference to humanity is baseless. If staying passive makes you happy, then take that route. If proving mathematical theorems makes you happy, then take that route. You seem to be saying that the pursuit of a goal in of itself matters, something that is not really at…

[deleted]

Re: The Fight

#125

Post by ForrestN » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 3:56 PM UTC

xianshou wrote: post #105

ForrestN wrote: post #91

This, as any would be, is certainly a valid way to respond to a brush with death. But implying that this is somehow a lesson to be learned by everyone, suggesting that others should live their life this way, seems misguided to me in context. Contemplating your mortality shouldn't necessarily convince you to double down on your current priorities (especially if those priorities are centered around banal platitudes lik…

The crux of your argument is the claim that, if the universe becomes a field of equidistant neutrinos, no action or thought in the meantime matters. The implicit assumption behind this view is that events only matter to the extent that they leave a legacy. In particular, it asserts that things only have ultimate meaning if they extend to temporal infinity. I believe that how one reacts to Curtis's post, and to your s…

My point isn't that everything is meaningless necessarily. I would say that the more one thinks about death the harder it is to make arguments for meaningfulness. I wouldn't make an argument for meaninglessness, I would just say that you can't really extrapolate a positive value system from the fact that life is short.

It feels like you're arguing in favor of narrowing our vantage as a way to preserve meaningfulness, which is totally valid to me. But it's basically using a belief (the meaning of temporary things as you put it) as comfort. My point, as was pointed out below, is that you may as well move but you also may as well stay still.

As an aside, it seems strange that Jobs is the illustrative example here, as if it's primitive that we should all want to be Him. Given the option to gain a problematic and presumably painful personal life and what I understand was a totally unnecessary early death along with creating apple and "changing" an arbitrarily tiny subset of human history, that seems like a very easy thing to decline. I take his decision to avoid treatment to reflect profound pain that I would love to avoid.

Re: The Fight

#126

Post by ForrestN » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 4:08 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #96

ForrestN wrote: post #91

This, as any would be, is certainly a valid way to respond to a brush with death. But implying that this is somehow a lesson to be learned by everyone, suggesting that others should live their life this way, seems misguided to me in context. Contemplating your mortality shouldn't necessarily convince you to double down on your current priorities (especially if those priorities are centered around banal platitudes lik…

I mainly disagree with this. It is extremely hard to comprehend how short life is. Most people actively avoid knowing. They tell themselves stories about eternal life, or they act like they have all the time in the world. When circumstances conspire to wake us to the transitory nature of life, it can be incredibly valuable. I violently disagree with the notion that the heat death of the universe "means that it really…

I love that you made a contemporary art reference (my field) even if Goldsworthy isn't such a good artist.

It is worth cooking a meal if you want to. It's worth making a line of rocks. It's worth programming a cute tumblr theme. Just don't pretend like you are doing those things because they are inherently better things to do than watching TV or lying in bed. These activities are all animated by your feelings about them, which your brain can't turn off regardless of how steeped in death you are.

You think Goldsworthy's work is beautiful. I don't. And that's fine. Not everyone has the same feelings and preferences. I'm not saying no one should "fight," just that they can't really argue on the basis of death that other people should.

Re: The Fight

#127

Post by ForrestN » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 4:13 PM UTC

davesims wrote: post #95

ForrestN wrote: post #91

This, as any would be, is certainly a valid way to respond to a brush with death. But implying that this is somehow a lesson to be learned by everyone, suggesting that others should live their life this way, seems misguided to me in context. Contemplating your mortality shouldn't necessarily convince you to double down on your current priorities (especially if those priorities are centered around banal platitudes lik…

Really well put. But to me, you bailed out, or at least contradicted yourself with the phrase, "instead of contributing to humanity." You set up a nice concise statement of Sartrean pointlessness, and then you appear to invalidate it completely with such a broad notion full of Big-Picture-Feel-Good-Meaningfulness as "contributing to humanity." You just kind of slipped that in there as if we all Know What You Mean. As…

I probably wasn't clear enough. I was saying the opposite, arguing that an appeal to contribute to humanity is not viable in the face of death. And further that most people who think that is what is driving them are really being driven by something else.

Re: The Fight

#128

Post by sneak » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 4:51 PM UTC

xianshou wrote: post #105

ForrestN wrote: post #91

This, as any would be, is certainly a valid way to respond to a brush with death. But implying that this is somehow a lesson to be learned by everyone, suggesting that others should live their life this way, seems misguided to me in context. Contemplating your mortality shouldn't necessarily convince you to double down on your current priorities (especially if those priorities are centered around banal platitudes lik…

The crux of your argument is the claim that, if the universe becomes a field of equidistant neutrinos, no action or thought in the meantime matters. The implicit assumption behind this view is that events only matter to the extent that they leave a legacy. In particular, it asserts that things only have ultimate meaning if they extend to temporal infinity. I believe that how one reacts to Curtis's post, and to your s…

Your words are inspiring and a joy to read.

Re: The Fight

#129

Post by nvarsj » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:55 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #50

jgrahamc wrote: post #20

Some time ago I came across an elderly man in some difficulty lying in the street in London. While waiting for an ambulance he 'died' (no heart beat, no respiration, no signs of life at all, blue lips and gums) and I immediately did CPR on him until the ambulance arrived. Months later I learnt that he survived. Any brush with death makes you seriously think about your own mortality. I know that watching this stranger…

This is a field where a surprising amount of progress is being made. People still tend to assume that CPR is mostly a token effort so bystanders feel like they're doing something. In reality, high quality CPR + rapid access to an AED can give just about any heart a fighting chance at beating again (assuming the underlying problem is transient or easily treatable... if your LAD cardiac artery is 100% occluded and half…

No offense to your passion, but I thought that CPR can be quite dangerous and ineffective. Don't many doctors wear DNR tags because of this?

The wikipedia article [1] has some information on this. The survival rate is something like 4% even though immediate recovery is around 40% (they survive long enough to get to the hospital, where they die due to the underlying condition). Meanwhile, the person has to suffer with the pain of broken ribs or other damage from the CPR attempt.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation#E...

Re: The Fight

#130

Post by FireBeyond » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 10:59 PM UTC

As a tangential aside, reading the opening paragraph of this article reminded me - in the US, if you have cardiac arrest, you want to have it either the counties surrounding The Mayo Clinic in Minnesota or Puget Sound:

While cities like Detroit, Chicago and New York have less than 10%, down to 2% survival for /witnessed/, VF/VT (ventricular fibrillation / tachycardia, the rhythms an AED can shock) arrest (i.e. the "best" cardiac event to have), Rochester Minnesota, and the three counties of King, Pierce and Thurston (Seattle, Tacoma and Olympia) have above 40 to nearly 50% survival.

Learn CPR.

-- a paramedic