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RFC 454545 – Human Em Dash Standard

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Re: RFC 454545 – Human Em Dash Standard

#121

Post by dathinab »

tavavex wrote: post #101
dathinab wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

never understood why -- => em-dash auto completion is only a think in some subset of application instead of being a standard behavior for (display) text inputs

Adding it to all text-editing environments could be problematic due to the decrement operator -- Many keyboard layouts for other languages use the right Alt (AltGr) key for less common symbols. Something like AltGr+(-) could work for the em dash.

that is why I said

(display) text inputs

maybe I should have called it "natural language text input"

text inputs for (non NLP) machines are a special case

and for some rare niche edge cases it's not like you can't "undo auto change" (if proper implemented)

still the default for all WYSIWYG editors and text field in browsers should be to do it (with the option to switch it off)

PS: Also in case it isn't clear it's `--` to `\1\2` auto completion. I.e. `---` for markdown isn't affected, nor is `i--` or `--i` or similar. It kind makes most "programming language" edge cases non problems.

Re: RFC 454545 – Human Em Dash Standard

#123

Post by dragonwriter »

embedding-shape wrote: post #28
orthogonal_cube wrote: post #21

> Historically, the em dash (—) has served as a flexible punctuation mark used by human authors to indicate interruption, emphasis, or sudden changes in thought. I learned about the em dash in high school and adapted it to my writing style very quickly for analysis and opinion documents. It felt natural given the amount of tangents I can go off into, particularly when including analogies for the reader’s understandin…

> I learned about the em dash in high school and adapted it to my writing style very quickly for analysis and opinion documents. It felt natural given the amount of tangents I can go off into, particularly when including analogies for the reader’s understanding. Isn't this what parenthesizes are meant for? Together with footnotes, I've always used them like that, but I guess it could also be just a cultural differenc…

> Isn't this what parenthesizes are meant for?

Parentheticals (including non-restrictive appositives) can be set off in English by either commas, em-dashes, or parentheses. There aren’t a lot of hard and fast rules for which is used where, though a common (partial) rule is for appositives without internal commas to be set off by commas and thise with internal commas to be set off with em-dashes. This obviously leaves open the handling of non-appositive parentheticals.

There are other uses of em-dashes, some of which softly overlap with other punctuation—I’m not aware of any common alternative to two em-dashes for ommission of partial words (useful in transcribing unclear sources, for instance.)

> I don't understand what the issue even is here, and the RFC also doesn't clearly outline it.

The RFC—fake, the maximum RFC number currently is 9945—is a joke.

Re: RFC 454545 – Human Em Dash Standard

#126

Post by mpalmer »

jdauriemma wrote: post #125
mpalmer wrote: post #122

Is western society "Dunning-Kruger"ing itself? Look at all of the absolute trash people are holding up as good ideas lately.

Next time you post a HN comment, try audibly sighing or pausing for 137 milliseconds first?

Never give advice that instantly applies to you

Re: RFC 454545 – Human Em Dash Standard

#127

Post by jdauriemma »

mpalmer wrote: post #126
jdauriemma wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Next time you post a HN comment, try audibly sighing or pausing for 137 milliseconds first?

Never give advice that instantly applies to you

The RFC is a joke, if you couldn't tell. Those are quotes from the text :)

Re: RFC 454545 – Human Em Dash Standard

#128

Post by monodeldiablo »

JCattheATM wrote: post #65
orthogonal_cube wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't this what parenthesizes are meant for? Parentheses add emphasis to a sentence or statement. Normally the use of it allows the sentence to be complete with or without it. Em dashes may also add or increase emphasis but are normally treated as an aside. Think of it as a comment by the author to inject themselves, sometimes in ways which do not form a complete sentence. For example: When you read this sentence (…

> Em dashes may also add or increase emphasis but are normally treated as an aside. Think of it as a comment by the author to inject themselves, sometimes in ways which do not form a complete sentence. A semicolon is better for this purpose. Good writing doesn't have mad tangents anyway, there should be a flow and natural transition.

You and Kurt Vonnegut seem to disagree here. He made liberal use of em dashes and hated semicolons.

And he was a giant of literature.

The problem with your definition of "good writing" is that it's entirely subjective. Just like Vonnegut's.

Re: RFC 454545 – Human Em Dash Standard

#129

Post by JCattheATM »

monodeldiablo wrote: post #128
JCattheATM wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Em dashes may also add or increase emphasis but are normally treated as an aside. Think of it as a comment by the author to inject themselves, sometimes in ways which do not form a complete sentence. A semicolon is better for this purpose. Good writing doesn't have mad tangents anyway, there should be a flow and natural transition.

You and Kurt Vonnegut seem to disagree here. He made liberal use of em dashes and hated semicolons. And he was a giant of literature. The problem with your definition of "good writing" is that it's entirely subjective. Just like Vonnegut's.

> You and Kurt Vonnegut seem to disagree here. He made liberal use of em dashes and hated semicolons.

Got some samples you would care to share? I'm skeptical we disagree, honestly. One can have preferences for different writing styles, and write in a way that works with preferred punctuation rather than against it.

> The problem with your definition of "good writing" is that it's entirely subjective.

I disagree. Subjectivity is only true to a point. Someone might like Independence Day 2 more than Citizen Kane, but the latter is objectively a better film.

Re: RFC 454545 – Human Em Dash Standard

#130

Post by monodeldiablo »

JCattheATM wrote: post #129
monodeldiablo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and Kurt Vonnegut seem to disagree here. He made liberal use of em dashes and hated semicolons. And he was a giant of literature. The problem with your definition of "good writing" is that it's entirely subjective. Just like Vonnegut's.

> You and Kurt Vonnegut seem to disagree here. He made liberal use of em dashes and hated semicolons. Got some samples you would care to share? I'm skeptical we disagree, honestly. One can have preferences for different writing styles, and write in a way that works with preferred punctuation rather than against it. > The problem with your definition of "good writing" is that it's entirely subjective. I disagree. Subj…

His word choice about semicolons is problematic for other reasons, so I won't quote it here, but Vonnegut made his views on punctuation and story structure very known. An internet search will provide it to you readily. And anybody who's read his works is familiar with his love of the em dash.

But more to his -- and my -- point: He also regularly encouraged people to flout rules and standards. His famous quote about semicolons, when read in its original context, is followed by a sentence with a semicolon!

He was a subversive author who abhorred mindless compliance and begged us to remain inquisitive. Subversion of accepted standards lies at the heart of all creativity. And as creative works enter the broader discourse, they themselves shape new standards. It's why our languages are always changing.

Your point about Citizen Kane and Independence Day 2 is nonsensical, and presumes we all have the same goals when consuming entertainment. I'm not going to engage in that argument.

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