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Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

nytimes.com

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Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#121

Post by api »

gizmondo wrote: post #111
api wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“We will do literally anything to make housing more affordable except build more of it.” Forget where I first saw that but it’s absolutely true. The left will try rent control, subsidies, taxes and prohibitions against speculation, banning AirBnB, etc. The right will try mass deportations and population caps. Nobody will build more housing because that would work, and home owners are incentivized not to do anything t…

In Switzerland most people rent, in Zurich/Geneva it's more than 80% of inhabitants, doesn't help one bit. I kid you not, we have the renter association that is working tirelessly to prevent new construction.

I guess the motives are not just financial. They’re also just general opposition to change.

There was this weird period after WWII where we built tons of housing. It was a major factor in building the largest middle class in human history. Then we stopped.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#122

Post by [deleted] »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #107
rimbo789 wrote: post #42

Typical right wing popularism to divide people and ignore the fact they have no actual solutions. Racism is bad people. This will hurt people living in Switzerland today and those who end up there in the future.

Why always bringing back everything to racism? The people of Switzerland want to maintain the look an feel of their country as it is. How is racism the first thing you think of when no one mentionned race?

[deleted]

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#123

Post by okanat »

unsnap_biceps wrote: post #95
swat535 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you've lived in an Islamic country but I have. In fact I was born there and spent more than half my life under Islamic law. More to it, I am the same brown minority that you seek to defend by posting this. Westerners are so naive, Islam's objective is to grow and convert as many people as possible. To this end, they have been building mosques all over the world, increasing their population and weaponi…

Perhaps a better avenue is to focus inward and promoting family values instead of outwards to resolve the issue? Inwards is the right answer, but it's not about lack of family values. It's the lack of stability and belief that people can give a good life to their offspring. We need to retreat from this capitalistic consume everything social structure and kids will naturally flow.

The problem with that is that the Pandora's box has been opened. We are trading with globalized world.

Europeans first stole the resources that fed the industrial revolution and enriched themselves at the loss of everybody else. Then with the US forced everyone to be part of "line always goes up" club, with extreme violence at the times.

You cannot just "exit" the club now. All rare metals, fruits, various produce, chemicals, clothing etc are sourced with the global trade network. Since everybody has to be in the "line goes up or else" club, (we) Europeans have to continue the saga to not lose the entire civilization we have now. Nobody except very big nations with rich resources can afford pulling the plug and be self sufficient.

If you are not joining the ponzi scheme, you cannot buy shit. Without buying rare elements you cannot make advanced silicon, computers, solar cells, batteries. All engineering, medicine, food needs the ruthless capitalism. You cannot quit without turning the world upside down again. And who are you going to force through the inevitable meat grinder?

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#124

Post by fakedang »

jeffbee wrote: post #49
Herring wrote: post #20

Western societies are aging. If you don't take in immigrants (which is basically the government becoming the far right), you're on a timer. Your economy will slow, insecurity will rise, and the far right will surge anyway. It's happening to Japan. As far as I can tell, the problem is inequality leading to widespread insecurity because the rich buy up housing. The right wing has no solutions. What you probably need is…

Switzerland obviously isn't anti-immigrant. Really nobody is from there. Nearly half of their population immigrated. But the SVP wants selected varieties of white immigrants, nobody any darker skinned than David Hasselhoff, certainly not anyone from east of Vienna (the SVP had an entire anti-Kosovar campaign).

My neighbours are a white Dutch couple who have been living in Switzerland for close to 3 decades, but were still denied citizenship at the cantonal level. Every time, it failed at the cantonal level alone.

The co-founder of Bitcoin Suisse too has been struggling to obtain Swiss citizenship.

So again, it's not a question of skin colour or wealth, but a far deeply rooted sense of racism and superiority, and general disdain the SVP and their supporters hold for anyone who isn't German Swiss.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#125

Post by constantius »

thrance wrote: post #116
happytoexplain wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a particularly egregious case of the "same people" fallacy.

Explain how. All the anti-immigration guys I've ever met were right-wingers. And we know the right's position on housing: never do anything that would devalue housing, never anger homeowners, always side with landlords, etc.

I don't know whether I'd call myself anti-immigration, but I'm as left as they come and I don't think that being pro-immigration is a left/right value. You can be on the left and have objections to immigration, you can be on the right and welcome immigration.

I invite you to read the book [How Migration Really Works](https://goodreads.com/book/show/82005192-how-migration-reall...).

Most people think that being anti-immigration equals being racist and wanting refugees to be turned away. And given your comment, that is also what you seem to believe. However, the large majority of immigration is state-sanctioned (so work visas, etc.), is not the immigration you hear about in the news or that racists talk about, and it's neither a left nor a right issue.

Immigration does have economic benefits, but I'm certain you'll agree nothing in the world is only good or only bad. Immigration does lead to larger competition on housing (more people = more demand), and generally this happens in the cities where the housing crisis is the worst. So more immigration undoubtedly benefits landlords.

Immigration also means more competition for jobs, which leads in practice to lower wages. So it also benefits capital-owners.

So you can be leftist, campaign to increase intake of refugees, campaign against the housing crisis and wealth inequality, and be against immigration.

As an example that might change your opinion (beyond talking to a leftist who does not think immigration is nothing but good): when the Tories came to power after Brexit, they implemented policies that greatly facilitated immigration (2-4 times yearly intake to what it was before Brexit) [0]. Corporations and the right are very much pro-immigration. Would you have expected that?

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit...

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#126

Post by eastbound »

well_ackshually wrote: post #18
eastbound wrote: post #8

[flagged]

> who were also protected by the minister of justice’s approach to justice I've repeatedly called you a dumbass on this website and it's not about to change with this comment: the minister of justice is not in charge of: * Police * Arresting people * Building prisons * Fixing the prison overpopulation that makes it impossible to send someone to jail. * Changing laws. > before you say it: the Crans Montana owner was F…

[flagged]

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#127

Post by happytoexplain »

thrance wrote: post #116
happytoexplain wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a particularly egregious case of the "same people" fallacy.

Explain how. All the anti-immigration guys I've ever met were right-wingers. And we know the right's position on housing: never do anything that would devalue housing, never anger homeowners, always side with landlords, etc.

Immigration is a broad topic. Immigration can be a valuable tool that benefits everybody, and it can destroy communities. Development has the same dichotomy (any kind - residential or otherwise). I'm certainly "anti-immigration" by some standards (i.e. "we're doing immigration bad", not "immigration as an idea is bad"). At the same time, I'm highly liberal (American).

(In case you're suspicious of other stereotypes: I'm not wealthy and have no interest in my home as an investment, and I don't live in California)

Stance on immigration and development is not nearly as strongly correlated with left/right as other wedge issues like reproductive rights, government secularism, etc.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#128

Post by tastyface »

rendang wrote: post #82
poly2it wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you truly believe Switzerland is at risk of an Islamic invasion? How do people on a platform such as HN fall for such obviously falsifiable statements? The initiative is obviously part of the global right-wing populist trend. Countries in the EU are dependent on immigration for maintaining their economies and public infrastructure as the population ages. I'm not Swiss, but the current government in Sweden has been…

[flagged]

I modestly propose a much better solution. 99% of perpetrators of sexual assault are men. Let's just ban all males regardless of race. Given the statistics, why would you want any men in your country?

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#129

Post by well_ackshually »

eastbound wrote: post #126
well_ackshually wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who were also protected by the minister of justice’s approach to justice I've repeatedly called you a dumbass on this website and it's not about to change with this comment: the minister of justice is not in charge of: * Police * Arresting people * Building prisons * Fixing the prison overpopulation that makes it impossible to send someone to jail. * Changing laws. > before you say it: the Crans Montana owner was F…

[flagged]

Ok gros faf.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#130

Post by bdangubic »

frumplestlatz wrote: post #117
hypeatei wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to blame the out group for your issues. The US currently has a sizable percentage of people that believe ICE deportations are going to lower housing prices, for example.

Does supply and demand apply or not? Building houses increases supply. Deportations reduce demand.

demand for what exactly?! 1 bedroom houses that sleep 37?
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