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House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

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Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#121

Post by munksbeer »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #22
armada651 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this becomes law, then yes. But then people will turn to VPS providers instead and set up their own VPNs, which will then prompt a law to demand age verification before renting any server. I wonder how far they're willing to go down this rabbit hole.

Not necessarily - how is a kid paying for a VPS server? A personal debit card (which requires ID verification anyway, and likely has their parents able to see activity)? A personal credit card (which definitely requires ID + 18+)? Stealing their parents' card (works for like 5 days)? Does the VPS company block VPN ports without verification, similar to how most companies handle email? Do you think VPS services have a…

When they block adult content behind age gates, children still view adult content, via VPN or via websites that have no interest in complying with the UK but may well have worse motivations to access children's data.

Age gating legitimate VPN or VPS will result in the same thing. Children will end up using less safe services to view what they want to view.

When my children are old enough, if we're still in the UK, I will be providing them with enough education to avoid ill intentioned sites, and will also provide them with a private VPN.

We learn nothing from history.

Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#122

Post by munksbeer »

eikenberry wrote: post #56
dlisboa wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this would easily be solved by just banning social media. Nothing will convince me they are a net-positive to society.

I don't think social media needs to be banned, but maybe using complex algorithms to drive attention should be. Even Facebook was pretty good back when its feed was a simple, chronological display of all your friends posts and nothing else. It went down the tubes as they moved away from that.

I wouldn't ban social media.

Here in the UK we require cigarette suppliers to advertise the dangers of smoking on every package.

I'd mandate that every social media platform is required to advertise the dangers on every page, and also give a very visible option to reveal the workings of the algorithm that is feeding you the pages.

Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#123

Post by munksbeer »

subscribed wrote: post #108
lacoolj wrote: post #5

Very shallow, naive approach to child safety. This is like banning children from riding scooters on a highway. They're just going to use a bike instead. Danger still exists. VPNs are not the only way around this, so if you want to ban the "method of access" you need to be much more broad, and get the parents involved.

This is not about the child safety, please stop believing British politicians. They just say things that are supposed to be discussed and repeated.

People say this, and maybe it is true. But do you live in the same Britain as me? The majority of parents and older people want this. They are ignorant of how it all works and want the government to "do something". They support stuff like this.

It doesn't actually matter how flawed it is. All that matters to the government is votes. Always. Governments exist to buy votes, otherwise they're not governments. Any time you see a government action, you can be very sure they think it will buy them votes.

Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#124

Post by HK-NC »

munksbeer wrote: post #121
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily - how is a kid paying for a VPS server? A personal debit card (which requires ID verification anyway, and likely has their parents able to see activity)? A personal credit card (which definitely requires ID + 18+)? Stealing their parents' card (works for like 5 days)? Does the VPS company block VPN ports without verification, similar to how most companies handle email? Do you think VPS services have a…

When they block adult content behind age gates, children still view adult content, via VPN or via websites that have no interest in complying with the UK but may well have worse motivations to access children's data. Age gating legitimate VPN or VPS will result in the same thing. Children will end up using less safe services to view what they want to view. When my children are old enough, if we're still in the UK, I…

When my daughter was young, maybe 8, she had access to a laptop. She wasnt glued to it, but it was her little computer for fooling around on. One day my PC died and I had important things to do, so I used her laptop. As I typed into the address bar some prior history popped up and I had a moment where I wondered if I should respect her privacy or make sure shes being safe. By the time Id done my emails I decided to take a peek. I regretted it as soon as I saw her search for "funny memes" or something followed minutes later by "funny memes for kids". To this day she complains that nobody in her age group knows how to use a search engine without writing a full sentence in the form of a question, instead of using key words.

The govt is a shit parent.

Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#126

Post by causalscience »

epiccoleman wrote: post #109
causalscience wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If caring that people might burn themselves with hot water is nanny state, then caring that people might burn themselves with macdonalds coffee is also nanny state.

That argument is specious to begin with, because typically a hot water heater should be set such that its maximum temperature would not cause a burn (just like how coffee should typically be served at a temperature that is not capable of melting skin ), but leaving that aside - the coffee case was a private tort case - a civil suit - and therefore does not and could not by definition support calling the country in wh…

Ok, so an airport is a private business and it chose to put "hot water" labels on the taps, and therefore does not and could not by definition support calling the country in which it occured a "nanny state".

Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#127

Post by causalscience »

iamnothere wrote: post #83
causalscience wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we've tried your thing of letting these companies call the shots. Now we'll try my thing for a bit :-) What's more hacker than experimenting to get the results you want?

No, we “hackers” will mock it and develop workarounds for it, leak ID databases to undercut support, etc. Worst case we move to sneakernets and meshes and teach kids about old school floppynets. (When I was a kid all the best stuff came by floppy, sometimes by rogue BBS.) More likely we’ll just distribute guides on using Tor and build a better ecosystem around it.

I mean.. Tor isn't gonna help you if there's no computers. We already got smartphones banned from schools. Work in progress.

Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#128

Post by munksbeer »

causalscience wrote: post #42

I'm in the UK and I've been involved in advocating for this. I find it utterly frustrating to read the "think of the children" mockery here on HN. I argue that this is good. There's many reasons why children having unfettered access to the internet and different campaigners care about different aspects, so I'm going to talk about the one I care about: addiction, destroyed ability to focus, and dopamine desensitizatio…

I admire your intentions, I genuinely mean that. I have children and worry about the horrible impact of social media too.

But your methods are flawed. I'm not even sure I can follow the logic of your post. You're talking about doing school work on iPads at school, so we must make everyone give their personal identifying information to VPNs? How does that follow?

The main problems I have with your methods:

1. You're forcing everyone in the UK to expose their personal identifying data to third party companies who *will* leak the data at some point.

2. You're forcing children to work around this and they *will* work around it and end up on websites that definitely do not have their best intentions in mind. I think your hammer approach is going to partly work, but have some extreme negative outcomes. Will you raise your hand for the harm this causes?

I'd suggest digesting what I'm saying here, really looking strongly at your aims and think if there are better alternatives.

Here is what I would like:

Whenever a UK citizen browses a social media site, I'd mandate banners that advertise the harms of social media, and also mandate that they can view the algorithm that is being used to feed them.

I plan on providing safe ways to browse the internet for my children when they're old enough. I'll give them their own VPN if needed, again with necessary precautions and education.

Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#129

Post by subscribed »

munksbeer wrote: post #123
subscribed wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about the child safety, please stop believing British politicians. They just say things that are supposed to be discussed and repeated.

People say this, and maybe it is true. But do you live in the same Britain as me? The majority of parents and older people want this. They are ignorant of how it all works and want the government to "do something". They support stuff like this. It doesn't actually matter how flawed it is. All that matters to the government is votes. Always. Governments exist to buy votes, otherwise they're not governments. Any time y…

I do.

But the government doesn't just implements things the people want.

The government passes whatever government wants, and if the STATED purpose matches the engineered demand, it's called democracy.

Tell me how much public support is for the ongoing UK participation in the genocide of Gaza (yes, participation, RAF flies spy planes and feeds Intel to IDF). How much public support is for human hormones treated beef/chlorinated chicken? How much public support is for the ongoing assault on freedoms / liberties? For the continued enshittification (literal!) of our rivers, lakes and beaches? For another Heathrow runway, for the ongoing, stealth privatization of NHS.

Policing bill (2022) had a significant opposition, recent upgrades to sentencing bill causing environmental protesters planning an event go to the prison for more than may be handed out for rape,

Legacy Act in 2024 shuts down all inquests and civil cases pertaining to the British Army alleged crimes during the Troubles.

The government legislates whatever government wants to legislate.

And I don't think the majority of the people want THIS exactly, they've been brainwashed by the overwhelmingly rightwing and pro-state media.

Re: House of Lords Votes to Ban UK Children from Using Internet VPNs

#130

Post by munksbeer »

subscribed wrote: post #129
munksbeer wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say this, and maybe it is true. But do you live in the same Britain as me? The majority of parents and older people want this. They are ignorant of how it all works and want the government to "do something". They support stuff like this. It doesn't actually matter how flawed it is. All that matters to the government is votes. Always. Governments exist to buy votes, otherwise they're not governments. Any time y…

I do. But the government doesn't just implements things the people want. The government passes whatever government wants, and if the STATED purpose matches the engineered demand, it's called democracy. Tell me how much public support is for the ongoing UK participation in the genocide of Gaza (yes, participation, RAF flies spy planes and feeds Intel to IDF). How much public support is for human hormones treated beef/…

Are you actually a parent to school age children? I am guessing not. I only say this because this whole group of policies (OSA, social media ban, etc) are highly supported by most parents in our school. Not me, but I have stopped trying to explain to others why I don't think the policies are good.

If you are a parent then I'm very surprised you have a different experience.

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