Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

AI Destroys Institutions

papers.ssrn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 165 posts

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#121

Post by rpdillon »

somebehemoth wrote: post #97
rpdillon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he incorrect that the paper is speculating about future events? I don't think it's completely uninformed either. He said that he's read the abstract, which is supposed to give you an impression of the structure of the argument. Why don't you engage with the criticism?

There is no criticism. He did not read the paper.

I read the entire paper, and his criticism is spot on. I even read through many of the references, which, in my spot checks, don't support the claims in the paper. Very disappointing work, IMHO.

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#122

Post by rpdillon »

DannyBee wrote: post #111
terminalshort wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you must have read all 40 pages of it, right? Because if not you are a hypocrite. I claim that the Bible is the literal truth. Oh, you haven't read every word of the Bible? Your arguments against me are worthless!

I did actually read all 40 pages of it. I frequently read law journal articles, among with lots of other types of journals and papers. I also used to maintain up to date reading lists of various areas (compiler optimization, for example) because I would read so many of the papers. Let me give you a piece of advice: First, gather facts, then respond. Here you start by sarcastically asserting i wouldn't have read it, b…

His criticism that the paper is speculation is spot on. Many of the references don't support the claims they are cited for. It's fascinating to me that you want to argue the poster's standing to make a criticism more than you want to actually discuss the content of the paper.

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#123

Post by chrisjj »

raincole wrote: post #28
rfv6723 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alarm isn't coming from outside the institutions; it's coming from a wider, more modern clergy. The new priestly class isn't defined by a specific building, but by a shared claim to the mastery of complex symbolic knowledge. The linguists who call AI a "stochastic parrot" are the perfect example. Their panic isn't for the public good; it's the existential terror of seeing a machine master language without needing…

> Their panic isn't for the public good; it's the existential terror of seeing a machine master language without needing their decades of grammatical theory. It's some wild claim. Every linguist worth their salt had known that you don't need grammatical theory to reach native level. Grammar being descriptive rather than prescriptive is the mainstream idea and had been long before LLM. If you actually ask them, I bet…

> "stochastic parrot" was coined before ChatGPT.

But not before LLMs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_parrot

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#124

Post by greggoB »

terminalshort wrote: post #110
greggoB wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if AI leads to a situation in which the very ability to separate factual reporting from propaganda is almost entirely destroyed for anyone besides those in control of it, will you still be fine with it then? Pointing to a system with problems and then saying you have no issue with something that has the potential to be orders of magnitude more problematic seems an odd approach to me.

Those in control of it aren't able to distinguish factual reporting today. Remember a few months ago when all the so called "reputable" news was screaming about an alleged terror attack against the UN that was caught, and it turned out to be nothing but a basic SMS fraud operation? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4w0d8zz22o

> Those in control of it aren't able to distinguish factual reporting today.

Can't tell if you're referring to media outlets or AI companies here.

I do remember this incident - it was an embarrassment for the outlets that jumped on that story. Especially because the general public has come to know there is a overriding tendency towards sensationalism.

But surely this is very different from actual outright propaganda operations?

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#125

Post by chrisjj »

terminalshort wrote: post #117
__loam wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so ridiculous to make this argument when the people who stand to benefit the most from this technology are the massive corporations that can subsidize the compute and capital costs of this technology. Is it democratization when Google pulls something your wrote on your website then runs it through an LLM so they can serve it directly to a user? You say people see this as a threat to their status but the reality…

The people who stand to benefit are you. If I have to pay a lawyer $1000 to review a contract, or spend $10 in tokens, I win. OpenAI may make $9 off of those tokens, or they may make $1. But that doesn't matter at all to me. I care about the $1000 vs $10, not the $9 vs $1.

Does the quality of the work matter at all to you?

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#127

Post by terminalshort »

greggoB wrote: post #124
terminalshort wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those in control of it aren't able to distinguish factual reporting today. Remember a few months ago when all the so called "reputable" news was screaming about an alleged terror attack against the UN that was caught, and it turned out to be nothing but a basic SMS fraud operation? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4w0d8zz22o

> Those in control of it aren't able to distinguish factual reporting today. Can't tell if you're referring to media outlets or AI companies here. I do remember this incident - it was an embarrassment for the outlets that jumped on that story. Especially because the general public has come to know there is a overriding tendency towards sensationalism. But surely this is very different from actual outright propaganda…

I'm talking about the media companies. AI companies aren't any better at it, but at least they don't go around sanctimoniously claiming to be the source of truth in the same way as journalists do.

And it isn't different than outright propaganda operations because it is an outright propaganda operation. If you read the link in my comment, you will see that the report is just repeating claims from the government nearly verbatim.

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#128

Post by __loam »

pousada wrote: post #77
terminalshort wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Get owned in court because you used an LLM that made a poor legal argument. 2. Get owned out of court because you couldn't afford the $100K (minimum) that you have to pay to the lawyer's cartel to even be able to make your argument in front of a judge. I'll take number 1. At least you have a fighting chance. And it's only going to get better. LLMs today are the worst they will ever be, whereas the lawyer's cartel…

Does it cost 100k minimum in the US to get a lawyer? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Many lawyers work on contingency and take a set proportion of the settlement if they win instead of charging hourly.

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#129

Post by __loam »

terminalshort wrote: post #117
__loam wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so ridiculous to make this argument when the people who stand to benefit the most from this technology are the massive corporations that can subsidize the compute and capital costs of this technology. Is it democratization when Google pulls something your wrote on your website then runs it through an LLM so they can serve it directly to a user? You say people see this as a threat to their status but the reality…

The people who stand to benefit are you. If I have to pay a lawyer $1000 to review a contract, or spend $10 in tokens, I win. OpenAI may make $9 off of those tokens, or they may make $1. But that doesn't matter at all to me. I care about the $1000 vs $10, not the $9 vs $1.

$10 until the contract is voided in court because you didn't know the law.

Re: AI Destroys Institutions

#130

Post by palmotea »

cornholio wrote: post #87

I would summarize the central claim of the paper as: the widespread use of AI to mediate human interaction will rob people of agency, understanding and skill development, as well as destroying the social links necessary to maintain and improve institutions, while at the same time allowing powerful unaccountable actors (AI cabal) to interject into those relations and impose their institutional goals; by "institution"…

And I think that's about right. Despite the marketing, I think AI (especially if the hyped capabilities arrive) will be one of the most destructive technologies ever invented. It only looks good to blinkered and deluded technocrats.
Post reply on HN