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High-Level Is the Goal

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Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#121

Post by nchmy »

I know this article is largely about too many js frameworks and also a call to making better tooling for low-level programming.

But it is also largely about the fact that most people making those js frameworks are not low-level programmers.

Folks really ought to check out Datastar. It's a newish js framework that is extremely innovative despite leaning as much as possible on browser apis. It's htmx + alpine + much more, yet smaller, faster and simpler.

Because it is built by a low-level programmer who is making the framework as a yak shaving side-quest. There's no dependencies - he built his own (world's fastest) signals and DOM morphing algorithms. V1 should be released soonish and they expect to never need a v2 - it'll just work forever (and probably become slimmer as browser capabilities grow).

And when he needs a break from that, he develops innovative approaches to CSS, serialization protocols, and databases.

https://data-star.dev

The discord is a fantastic place as well, of like-minded people.

Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#122

Post by sudodevnull »

nchmy wrote: post #121

I know this article is largely about too many js frameworks and also a call to making better tooling for low-level programming. But it is also largely about the fact that most people making those js frameworks are not low-level programmers. Folks really ought to check out Datastar. It's a newish js framework that is extremely innovative despite leaning as much as possible on browser apis. It's htmx + alpine + much mo…

he is out of line, but he is right

Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#123

Post by analogpixel »

> Truckla is an excellent execution of a flawed idea. If you want to build a good pickup truck, you have to start with the frame.

But the "truck" that was "built from the frame" by Tesla was somehow worse. So his argument is frameworks built from the ground up will be ego projects that are big, ugly, shiny, and don't actually work

Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#124

Post by a_victorp »

analogpixel wrote: post #123

> Truckla is an excellent execution of a flawed idea. If you want to build a good pickup truck, you have to start with the frame. But the "truck" that was "built from the frame" by Tesla was somehow worse. So his argument is frameworks built from the ground up will be ego projects that are big, ugly, shiny, and don't actually work

His argument is that it's not possible to build a good truck from a sedan frame not that all trucks built from a truck frame will be better than Truckla. F'ing up a truck design is pretty much possible

Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#125

Post by tormeh »

teiferer wrote: post #115
antonvs wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the only usable form of reference! I want all the details to be presented in a reference. Where else? This is one of those "there are N types of people in the world". I'm with you, a detailed reference is the ideal scenario, but there seem to be many people who don't find that useful given their knowledge acquisition style.

Sure. But they explicitly claimed that a detailed reference is not useful as a reference.

Not any reference, though, but a specific style of one: A reference mostly written as a box-ticking exercise, written more for the writer than the reader. I like manpages, but the microcontroller manuals rarely reach those lofty heights.

Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#127

Post by tialaramex »

> If you have heard of the Handmade community, you likely think...

I think that "the Handmade community" are people who mistook Casey for a messiah, in a sort of "Life of Brian" scenario.

The best part of "Handmade" is when somebody who'd otherwise doubt their ability makes a video game. The resulting games are usually at least interesting, and video games are art so, interesting is enough. If Steam had a dozen interesting crap games for every asset-flip cash-grab piece of junk it would have a very different reputation.

The worst part of "Handmade" is the mob of people who can't and won't make useful software but feel Casey (and much worse Jon Blow and Ginger Bill) has given them permission to criticise anybody who does because the software didn't meet their sky-high expectations.

Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#128

Post by cyber_kinetist »

wiseowise wrote: post #62
cyber_kinetist wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not bad for mobile apps, but still sucks a lot for desktop support. Also, really wished they've opted for a more general language like C# rather than Dart - but that's inevitable since Google needed to make use of their Dart language after they've failed to standardize it on the Web (and I think they don't want to use a language developed by Microsoft of all companies)

They've picked Dart because it was the only language that could have small aot binaries, hot reload capable runtime without compromise and most importantly because they could influence development of the language. C# is one of the worst choices they could make at the time.

Yeah good point. Although C# nowadays has good AOT support, that wasn't the case in the early days of Flutter (Google could have collaborated with Microsoft to develop this, but why would they?...)

Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#129

Post by cyber_kinetist »

mrsmrtss wrote: post #111
mrsmrtss wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would C# be the worst choice? Do you gave any real arguments or is it just your biased opinion.

Sorry, made a typo with 'gave' -> 'have'. But the point stays , why would C# be (one of) the worst choices here (when C# has small AOT binaries, hot reload etc)?

Nowadays C# has good AOT support, but it wasn't when Flutter was in its infancy.

Re: High-Level Is the Goal

#130

Post by cyber_kinetist »

DeathArrow wrote: post #46
cyber_kinetist wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I very much reject a "desktop framwork". Qt has its own abstractions for everything from sockets to executing processes and loading images, and I don't want that. Yes, that is the consensus of why Qt sucks - it's a massive framework that tries to do everything at the same time with a massive toolset of in-house libraries. This is inherently tied to the revenue model of the Qt Company - sell custom modules that work…

>That's why I'm rooting for PanGUI ( https://www.pangui.io/ ) to succeed - it pretty much completes all the checkboxes you have, but it's still WIP and in closed alpha They say it's in beta and it seems anyone can sign up for the beta.

Ah good point. Though I've already signed up for it and didn't get the invite yet... so this seems more like a closed beta.
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