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The Jeff Dean Facts

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Re: The Jeff Dean Facts

#121

Post by rayiner »

kentonv wrote: post #120
rayiner wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that is a pretty textbook example of systemic racism. It’s not “racism.” There’s plenty of Indians with names that are easy for English speakers. Conversely, the same situations would’ve presented itself if the other person was any sort of white Eastern European. In fact, calling this “racist” is itself racist. I have close friends with family names from Poland or Croatia where we don’t even try to pronounce their…

Are we... arguing about what happened in my head? As the world's foremost expert about what happened in my head, do I get to, like, pick a winner here? If so I pick tczMUFlmoNk, I think their description is accurate. (I think you might want to re-read it as it feels like you are responding to something else.) If I don't get to pick, this is quite weird! "People on Hacker News tell me I'm wrong about my own thoughts."…

You wrote what your thoughts were. I’m just weighing in on whether your thoughts are “racist.” To the extent you feel sensitive about the issue because someone has darker skin, where you probably wouldn’t have written that part of the post if the other guy were Polish, that’s racist. It’s racist to treat people differently based on skin color, even if you’re well intentioned about it.

Re: The Jeff Dean Facts

#122

Post by kentonv »

swyx wrote: post #117
kentonv wrote: post #18

Hey! I created Jeff Dean Facts! Not the jokes themselves, but the site that collected them. It was in 2008 I think (give or take a year, can't remember). I worked at Google at the time. Chunk Norris Facts was a popular Internet meme (which I think later faded when he came out as MAGA, but I digress...). A colleague (who wishes to remain anonymous) thought the idea of Jeff Dean Facts would be funny, and April 1st was…

> Jeff & Sanjay did everything together, my nonexpert impression is jeff keeps much more of a public profile. hence the natural celebrity goes to him. was this not true way back in the day?

I feel like Jeff's public profile has grown quite a bit since then. Note that in 2008 he wasn't doing anything related to AI yet -- none of that had even started. That has since given him somewhat of a more public role, whereas Sanjay has stayed on infrastructure which is more internal-facing. I do think Jeff Dean Facts in itself has played some part in enhancing his celebrity status, too.

With that said, I suppose it's hard for me to say what the public perception of the two was in 2008 as I only knew of either of them from working there.

Re: The Jeff Dean Facts

#123

Post by vessenes »

kentonv wrote: post #18

Hey! I created Jeff Dean Facts! Not the jokes themselves, but the site that collected them. It was in 2008 I think (give or take a year, can't remember). I worked at Google at the time. Chunk Norris Facts was a popular Internet meme (which I think later faded when he came out as MAGA, but I digress...). A colleague (who wishes to remain anonymous) thought the idea of Jeff Dean Facts would be funny, and April 1st was…

Re Jeff and Sanjay - they recently were on Dwarkesh together I believe - so it looks like the partnership is still going strong. Regarding Dean over Ghemawat facts, the vibe from the convo is that Sanjay is the (very slightly) junior partner of the two, or at least he lets Jeff do more of the talking. Very, very nice vibes hearing them talk, and their war stories are clearly nuts.

Re: The Jeff Dean Facts

#127

Post by refulgentis »

rayiner wrote: post #121
kentonv wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we... arguing about what happened in my head? As the world's foremost expert about what happened in my head, do I get to, like, pick a winner here? If so I pick tczMUFlmoNk, I think their description is accurate. (I think you might want to re-read it as it feels like you are responding to something else.) If I don't get to pick, this is quite weird! "People on Hacker News tell me I'm wrong about my own thoughts."…

You wrote what your thoughts were. I’m just weighing in on whether your thoughts are “racist.” To the extent you feel sensitive about the issue because someone has darker skin, where you probably wouldn’t have written that part of the post if the other guy were Polish, that’s racist. It’s racist to treat people differently based on skin color, even if you’re well intentioned about it.

You're conflating two different things:

1. The original choice: Kenton picked "Jeff Dean" because the name was more familiar/rhythmic in English. This wasn't about skin color, it was about name patterns. You're right that a Polish surname could have the same issue, and in that, you're demonstrating complete understanding of the issue at hand.

2. The reflection afterward: Recognizing that name-familiarity advantages systematically correlate with certain cultural backgrounds more than others isn't "differential treatment based on skin color", it is observing a statistical pattern in outcomes.

And here's the key point: given Kenton's explanation, they are indicating they would reflect the same way if Sanjay had been Polish with an unfamiliar surname. You're arguing with Kenton about what Kenton thinks and could think... while Kenton is right here. At some point you have to engage with what he's actually saying rather than insisting you understand his mind better than he does.

Re: The Jeff Dean Facts

#128

Post by jll29 »

advisedwang wrote: post #82
esafak wrote: post #8

It's nice that a company has senior engineers that are known by name and looked up to. It shows that engineers are valued, and a meritocracy exists.

> It shows that engineers are valued yep > and a meritocracy exists not necessarily. It shows the system got one excellent engineer to an appropriate position. But it doesn't show that the system isn't promoting bozos too, and keeping other excellent engineers down.

> But it doesn't show that the system isn't promoting bozos too, and keeping other excellent engineers down.

Has anyone worked at GOOG and also other corporations? How do the alternative cultures compare?

Re: The Jeff Dean Facts

#129

Post by Sesse__ »

dysoco wrote: post #91
nickstaggs wrote: post #25

Maybe I just run in different circles but I was always under the impression that the so called Chuck Norris of programming was Jon Skeet, another rather "famous" google employee

Yeah I thought exactly the same, but I guess Jon Skeet is from a different era altogether, we're moving into a world where many programmers perhaps have never even entered StackOverflow. I feel old.

Jon Skeet was very much a local hero on StackOverflow, and on StackOverflow only.

Re: The Jeff Dean Facts

#130

Post by jll29 »

foolfoolz wrote: post #48
whynotminot wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, no one seems to think much of value was lost.

ai ethics was/is useless. it felt a lot like the movie industry of the 1930s saying they will police themselves just to keep any bigger regulator away

To say "AI ethics is useless" is itself useless.

Morality is not there to be useful, right or wrong in moral sense are normative categories not utilitarian ones.

But what you possibly may mean is really AI ethics self-regulation by large tech corporation does not work. (If that was your intended statement, I'd agree.)

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