How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products • Hacker News Board

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#121

Post by bravoyankee » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 10:41 PM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #77

righyeah wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've nailed it with your first paragraph. That is the scheme. It's old. It still works. The web, like TV, is absolutely perfect for this scheme. The audience that includes people who would pay for this sort of advice is the one that watches TV at odd hours, and they are now increasingly surfing the web. It is the rough equivalent of the infommercial. While it may be theoretically possible, no one is going to make f…

I find this outlook really sad. I paid $39 for Brennan's ebook (thanks to a $10 off coupon) and I didn't know him from Adam when I bought it. Literally don't think I had ever heard of him, but someone on HN recommended it. I read the whole thing in one sitting and the very next day, sent out two project proposals at a 50% bump in my normal hourly rates. One guy balked, one guy just said ok without comment. That simpl…

Why do I need to buy a book to raise my rates? I do anyway. Why did you need to? I'm confused.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#122

Post by edanm » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 10:44 PM UTC

scorpioxy wrote: post #59

I've been thinking about trying one of the mentioned courses because I am trying to transition from side projects just to scratch an itch to services that people would actually use. So figured that learning from the experience of people who've done it before (Amy, Patrick, Brennan...) would cut down on the trial and error phase. But how would I shake the feeling that these exist as part of the marketing scheme that t…

The thing is, I've been around HN for a few years. I've seen people like patio11 transform from what they were doing before, to selling these types of courses. I've also seen patio11 give out free, amazing material for the last 2 years. And a lot more before I was around.

So when someone new to the "scene" is skeptical, I find it very funny. You have a right to be skeptical, of course, but really the best most of us can offer is to say: "These people know what they're talking about. And they're not just selling snake oil. We've known them for years". Maybe if enough people say it, it will help prove to you that it's not just a "marketing scheme".

P.S. I don't know Brennan Dunn, and haven't (yet) read his book, but he is endorsed by patio11. So is Amy Hoy, if I'm not mistaken. And with Amy, I've also used her time-tracking software for some time.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#123

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 10:45 PM UTC

reinhardt wrote: post #117

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I could have raised my rate at any time, but I didn't until I read the book. If you haven't raised your rates for seven years , I'm guessing that you've thrown away six figures of lost income. I say this based on an assumption founded on the observation that something like 98% of freelance developers are undercharging for no reason at all. I was. You are. Even just taking inflation into account, you should be char…

We are having this discussion because this particular book happened to make it to the HN front page. Everything you write would be equally valid justifications to buy every self-help or get-rich-quick book out there. In fact, that's one of the standard marketing tricks such ebooks employ: comparing the modest price of the ebook with the potential (typically best case) reward. There must be a name for this common fall…

Everything you write would be equally valid justifications to buy every self-help or get-rich-quick book out there.

It wouldn't for me, because I haven't bought all those other books or gotten results from them. I did from this one. YMMV.

Your attack can be used for any product that's ever been sold: "Wait, you're telling me that I'll get more value from this than what I'm paying for it. Hmm...that sounds an awful lot like every get-rich-quick scheme I've heard." Yes, marketing sounds like marketing, whether it's for a bad product or a good one. If you think that this sounds like more fluff than value, don't buy it. But attacking it (not you, but others upstream) because it's for sale and purporting to offer net value seems ridiculous.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#124

Post by bravoyankee » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 10:51 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #90

righyeah wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've nailed it with your first paragraph. That is the scheme. It's old. It still works. The web, like TV, is absolutely perfect for this scheme. The audience that includes people who would pay for this sort of advice is the one that watches TV at odd hours, and they are now increasingly surfing the web. It is the rough equivalent of the infommercial. While it may be theoretically possible, no one is going to make f…

Just one of my products, Freckle, makes $30,000 a month… more than 6x what you claim is impossible. On, what, you say? Time tracking. A space in which we are a tiny niche player. http://letsfreckle.com But there's no point in letting facts get in the way of righteous condemnation, is there?

How long has freckle been around for? How many hundred blog posts have you written to promote it? How many interviews have you done over the years and plugged it? How many joint ventures and mailing lists has freckle been on?

Yeah, if I hustled like you have with freckle, I'd be making at least $30,000 a month too.

I'm just trying to insert some reality into the conversation. It's like watching professional athletes, we never see how much of their life they sacrificed to get to that point.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#125

Post by drusenko » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 10:51 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #67

drusenko wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this sound oddly like the often reviled "I have a great idea, now all I need is to hire a programmer!"

I don't think so. If I have an idea _and_ I am able and willing to develop the product, I have more to offer than just an idea. Product development is a job. Having ideas isn't. I see no reason why software developers and marketing people shouldn't start a startup together. Both have something valuable they can contribute.

I think you may have missed my point. It was that the "business person" is usually seen as "just having an idea, not doing any real work" by this community -- even though they would bring marketing, PR, product, etc skills to the table.

And the dismissive "I'll just hire a marketer" talk sounds a lot like the marketer saying "I'll just hire a programmer".

It seems like we're in full agreement: these two functions can and should co-exist.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#126

Post by righyeah » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 10:54 PM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #99

righyeah wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's like condemning all..." No, it is not like that. I'm not sure why you would see it that way. It is condemning a very specific practice. This practice is much like multi-level marketing. You might think of it as a sort of recursion. To use your example, it would be like selling a book on how to sell a book on how to learn to program. You might do very well with this sort of business but it does not require that…

Your whole attack falls apart here, because none of Brennan's products are about how to build products. They're all about how to better do consulting (which he has done and continues to do). There's a pretty strong difference here.

"none of [his] products are about how to build products. They're about how to do better consulting..."

The question is: What is being consulting on?

Is it substantive?

Building products seems substantive. Especially building products that can produce sufficient income over the long term. But if it's not on bulding products like this then what is it? Is it about how not to have to build products that make sizeable but not sufficient income and instead to sell advice to people in that position? How clever.

If every developer were to become a "consultant", then who is left doing the grunt work of actually building products? Who is left to discover these websites, while they can produce decent bursts of monthly income, are not enough to sustain someone over a long period?

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#127

Post by nhangen » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 11:05 PM UTC

Brennan,

We met at LessConf, and talked quite a bit. I think you're a great guy and you are obviously very talented and very smart.

But...I got into this business because I got tired of the get rich blogging circle jerk I was part of in the past, and I'm very disappointed to see it coming into the tech world too.

I don't take issue with what you are doing, but between the turn Andrew took at Mixergy (pumping out a bunch of subpar marketing courses), the #leanstartup hysteria, and Frank Kern's IM marketing buddies infiltrating the space, I'm grossed out by the pitching and the polish.

Please let there be solace from this stuff somewhere...

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#128

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 11:05 PM UTC

righyeah wrote: post #126

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your whole attack falls apart here, because none of Brennan's products are about how to build products. They're all about how to better do consulting (which he has done and continues to do). There's a pretty strong difference here.

"none of [his] products are about how to build products. They're about how to do better consulting..." The question is: What is being consulting on? Is it substantive? Building products seems substantive. Especially building products that can produce sufficient income over the long term. But if it's not on bulding products like this then what is it? Is it about how not to have to build products that make sizeable but…

Sorry for not being clear. Brennan is a programmer, and his audience (myself included) seems to overwhelmingly be programmers who do freelance programming. So his products are specifically for programmers who do contract / freelance programming work. Is that clear enough?

This discussion might be more productive if you had bothered to even check out his products.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#129

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 11:09 PM UTC

bravoyankee wrote: post #121

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this outlook really sad. I paid $39 for Brennan's ebook (thanks to a $10 off coupon) and I didn't know him from Adam when I bought it. Literally don't think I had ever heard of him, but someone on HN recommended it. I read the whole thing in one sitting and the very next day, sent out two project proposals at a 50% bump in my normal hourly rates. One guy balked, one guy just said ok without comment. That simpl…

Why do I need to buy a book to raise my rates? I do anyway. Why did you need to? I'm confused.

If you're positive that you're charging as much as you possibly can and there's nothing you could read or learn about the way you do your consulting that would help you raise those rates by even $1 / hr, then I wouldn't purchase this particular book.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#130

Post by timf » Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 11:11 PM UTC

bravoyankee wrote: post #124

ahoyhere wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one of my products, Freckle, makes $30,000 a month… more than 6x what you claim is impossible. On, what, you say? Time tracking. A space in which we are a tiny niche player. http://letsfreckle.com But there's no point in letting facts get in the way of righteous condemnation, is there?

How long has freckle been around for? How many hundred blog posts have you written to promote it? How many interviews have you done over the years and plugged it? How many joint ventures and mailing lists has freckle been on? Yeah, if I hustled like you have with freckle, I'd be making at least $30,000 a month too. I'm just trying to insert some reality into the conversation. It's like watching professional athletes,…

Her point is that her product is a counterexample to the parent commenter, not that it came without effort. Where is she ever saying it doesn't take effort?