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Stop Slopware

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121–130 of 171 posts

Re: Stop Slopware

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every now and then someone posts the "X programmers (implied good) hate AI, Y programmers (implied bad) hate AI!" and every time people come out of the woodwork to point out that, no, X programmers can also use AI to take out things they can delegate and focus on stuff that's cool. Case in point, Steve Klabnik, a programmer who nobody can say doesn't care about the craft, is working on a new language primarily with A…

It can be, yeah. I use it sometimes to shim libraries or write one-off scripts. But it's made me disgustingly introspective. Why do I do anything? Where do I draw my lines? An example. I've been writing a Lisp, and I'm using GNU Readline for text input. Later I found out that Readline can't be built for WebAssembly, and I decided to have Claude write a podunk replacement for it. I now have a bit of code in my Git, at…

In practice we've been doing setting the threshold of what we care about for a long time already, with firmware, operating systems, libraries, etc. You can always go one level deeper if you want more. Did you want to know how readline works? What about terminal control characters? What about pty? What about the input? The keyboard interface? HID? Device drivers? USB? Packet transmission? Serial interfaces? Electrical connections? Signal integrity?

LLM code provides just another type of available abstraction where we can stop in learning, but not really something entirely new.

Re: Stop Slopware

#123
I've been using Gemini / Antigravity to make a virtual pet for my kids using Love2D / lua. I never coded in my life and have no intention of learning (but I've been learning a lot about game systems and logic, which has been fun). The game is coming along very well and it looks very pretty (I'm a professional illustrator) and if I decide to publish it, no one will care the code is made in AI. It's very high effort, to be honest. You'd had to look into the code to know AI made it.

I now get why so many people are making AI art. I see their "work" as an illustrator and it is absolute slop, but I can see now how it might be fun and even liberating for people who don't make a living with it. So I now think twice before calling AI art "slop". Sure, it may be slop, but it's making a lot of people happy and probably opening up new carreer paths for people.

And yes, I've been affected financially because of this... but I get it.

Re: Stop Slopware

#125
post #55

It bothers me that so many programmers I know, here and in real life, seem to never actually have cared about the craft of software development? Just about solving problems. I like problem solving too. But I also like theory and craft, and in my naïveté I assumed most of us were like me. LLMs divorced craft-programming from tool-programming and now it seems like there were never any craft-programmers at all. It feels…

I used to be intrigued by _software craftsmanship_, but I mainly saw people using it to practice heavy gatekeeping. Be it on the job, in code reviews, in job interviews...

Furthermore, given how they behave in a cult-like way, it feels like they are straight-up delusional.

People working as consultants for big retail chains, talking all day long about "the craft". Nobody cares. They sell trash. They don't put marble in their store. They don't want fancy software. Furthermore, if, by trying to force "the craft" to their peers, all they do is making the life of others miserable... Just stop. Please.

Now my approach is as follow:

if stakeholders are only interested in two things (how-much it cost, when it's ready), which is 99% of the case at $JOB, then make something that does the job and that won't make you hate yourself if you have to maintain it in a year

if I'm the stakeholder, like creating internal tooling that nobody asked for but that will solve issues, then yes, I do things as good as I want them to be

same for working on FOSS on my personal time

Re: Stop Slopware

#126
post #55

It bothers me that so many programmers I know, here and in real life, seem to never actually have cared about the craft of software development? Just about solving problems. I like problem solving too. But I also like theory and craft, and in my naïveté I assumed most of us were like me. LLMs divorced craft-programming from tool-programming and now it seems like there were never any craft-programmers at all. It feels…

The craft is alive and well in embedded spaces. When I was growing up as a programmer I observed JavaScript and swore I would never, ever touch webdev. As I got older that list kept growing to include mobile, then Apple, then desktop in general. I like my little world of C where everything must be crafted with care or it just plain doesn't work. And it's not that there isn't any embedded slopware, but the constraints…

> world of C where everything must be crafted with care or it just plain doesn't work.

I hope you track the progress so you're not surprised one day. The research side is way past embedded C and VHDL was of interest a year ago https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3670474.3685966 In embedded code, recent LLMs can do just fine with popular architectures. It's down to the spec and test harness whether embedded C works or not. The moat is not that big.

Re: Stop Slopware

#127

I've been using Gemini / Antigravity to make a virtual pet for my kids using Love2D / lua. I never coded in my life and have no intention of learning (but I've been learning a lot about game systems and logic, which has been fun). The game is coming along very well and it looks very pretty (I'm a professional illustrator) and if I decide to publish it, no one will care the code is made in AI. It's very high effort, t…

Your point also touches on the idea that new things are being created that might well never have. Like your virtual pet. You might have been commissioned to illustrate such a thing but most likely not, and it wouldn’t have been “yours.” It reminds me of when desktop publishing, MIDI sequencers, or PowerPoint took off and people produced all sorts of things that were largely not of high artisanal quality but it was new stuff, people got personal value from it (as it was harder to spread stuff around pre-Internet) and the tools eventually matured into what all the pros now use anyway.

That said, I concede the critics have many valid points and concerns and it’s going to be interesting to see how we navigate this flood of “stuff” at a scale never seen before. (I suspect it’ll end up like YouTube and video. Ultra long tail. Most stuff never seeing more than a few eyeballs and a smaller group getting the lion’s share of attention, as with most things. Did YouTube change TV and video production more generally? Yes! But it also didn’t destroy it..)

Re: Stop Slopware

#128
post #55

It bothers me that so many programmers I know, here and in real life, seem to never actually have cared about the craft of software development? Just about solving problems. I like problem solving too. But I also like theory and craft, and in my naïveté I assumed most of us were like me. LLMs divorced craft-programming from tool-programming and now it seems like there were never any craft-programmers at all. It feels…

The craft has, unfortunately, died by a a bunch of tech companies who promised you the craft, but in really were all about making money ASAP, disregarding the craft.

Nowadays, the craft can be practiced at your home, by yourself.

Re: Stop Slopware

#129
I don't think we should shame beginners for using AI. Instead, we should encourage them to try working manually and/or learn fundamentals.

Also, public communities have been overrun with low-quality beginner posts for longer than AI. Moreover, you can't convince all beginners to stop using AI, because some are malicious and/or socially inept. Moreso than shame or encouragement, we need a filter for low-quality projects (perhaps a combination of AI flagging and manual review). That would benefit both the beginners and the people who shame them because they're bothered.

Re: Stop Slopware

#130

Why would any actual software engineer be against slopware? When it inevitably all comes crashing down because there was no actual software architecture or understanding of the code, someone will have to come in to make the actual product. Hopefully by then we will have realistic expectations for the LLM, have skilled up, and we as a community treat them as just another feature in the IDE.

> Why would any actual software engineer be against slopware? When it inevitably all comes crashing down [...] someone will have to come in to make the actual product.

Why would a window maker be against breaking windows?

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