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US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

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Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#121

Post by AndrewKemendo »

meowface wrote: post #92
peppersghost93 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on where you were during those decades. If you're in one of the unlucky countries that didn't do what the US wanted you likely suffered enormously.

Part of it is ideas and ideals. America represents ideas of liberty, liberalism, democracy, and individualism. The USSR/Russia and China represent the exact opposite. America has failed to live up to those ideals (slavery, plunder, toppling democratically elected leaders to install military dictatorships, unnecessary wars with mass civilian casualties) on multiple occasions, but if you at least look at things on pape…

This is proof of my point

Look at this abject propaganda

“ Part of it is ideas and ideals. America represents ideas of liberty, liberalism, democracy, and individualism. The USSR/Russia and China represent the exact opposite.”

This is just pure John Birch society propaganda and at no point has the US actually ever attempted in any real way to realize this

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#122

Post by nosianu »

embedding-shape wrote: post #99
meowface wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's very likely counterfactually better than USSR (now Russian) or Chinese hegemony. Imagine if Al Gore had won 2000 - America at the helm while growing increasingly wary of violent foreign interventions seems like the least bad path for Earth. (I am not sure if such a path still remains.) China ultra-liberalizing and becoming a democracy and then the hegemon could be an okay path but I am not too optimistic…

> I think it's very likely counterfactually better than USSR (now Russian) or Chinese hegemony. Why is it either or the other? Just because the US happens to turn inwards and stop acting like the world police, doesn't mean that other countries suddenly start dreaming of world domination. China and Russian both have plenty of problems in their home fronts and surrounding areas.

> China and Russian both have plenty of problems in their home fronts and surrounding areas.

Do you know how Russia got so large? They started out small.

They solve such problems by doing the one thing they have always done: expanding. Successful conquest temporarily mitigates internal problems, injustices and inefficiencies.

Video: The History of Russia: Every Year - https://youtu.be/uCIp3CF33ms

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#123

Post by exceptione »

zeroCalories wrote: post #39

I always feel weird reading statements from the EU regarding this relationship. There's always talk of the U.S abandoning it's position, guilt tripping, etc. but very little about what the EU plans to do in retaliation. Cut off the U.S from the research? Retaliatory tariffs? Why is the U.S leaving NATO a concern for the EU, but not a concern for the U.S? The fact that these are not the top talking points makes me thi…

  > guilt tripping, etc. but very little about what the EU plans to do in retaliation.
The narratives are harmful. What would retaliation bring? The EU doesn't fancy a winner-takes-all mindset. There is no joy if the US goes down as some sort of backwards kleptocracy. There is no joy if the US populace slide back into the gilded age. It doesn't make the EU better. On the contrary. It will be a loss for both sides. Hence, why they speak out (a little).

Abandoning the rules based order, science, equality, personal rights; it all will have devastating effects. For Americans, for everyone.

The US position in the NATO is an arrangement like the Americans wanted for decades, it enabled the US to profit greatly from it, and Europa was happy to have the US as a counter balance. Now, if the US wants to change the arrangement, that is of course possible. But we have signed contracts, blackmail and extortion shouldn't have a place. Can't share sources, but under this administration several powerful but corrupt people in the army even tried to extort European partners already. It is on track to become Russified in that sense, nothing to be gleeful over.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#124

Post by robswc »

cgio wrote: post #107
robswc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is US losing, relative to Europe/other countries? I can't really think of many notable things to come out of Europe as of late... besides maybe covid vaccines but its hard to really say that when 90% of the wikipedia page for the "creators" is about research and contributions that they did (and could really only do) in the US.

You allude to it yourself in your example. People, from all over the world, were doing research in the US, because that’s the only place they could really do it. Now that this option is disappearing, the system will have to adjust and find another place. When that happens, US loses. Until it does, we all do.

People have been claiming "this is the end" of the US, for some reason or another, ever since I've been on the internet (since 2005).

This same sentiment was going around in 2016 when Trump was doing those ridiculous "bans" on immigration. Since then I would argue the US has only increased its influence and power over Europe. Europe needs help with the war and the US has already given immeasurable resources. Europe has almost no skin in the game when it comes to AI. Maybe that's a bubble but the point still stands.

Ofc I don't agree with what the current president is doing, but the idea that businesses and research will flock to Europe is amusing. They've certainly introduced enough barriers to ensure that won't happen.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#125

Post by afavour »

lisbbb wrote: post #51
afavour wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s difficult to compete economically. If the US has welcoming immigration policies for scientists and will pay 10x what your country can afford then you’re going to end up with a brain drain. Recent changes in the US have changed that calculus but you can’t create an entire industry in the blink of an eye (and, of course, those changes can be reversed at any point)

What the US needs first and foremost is a better future for its own citizens. We have abandoned our youth to unemployment and underemployment.

I think you need to show the working a little on a statement like that. Some immediate questions that come to mind:

- how many US citizens do these labs hire for every immigrant scientist they employ? There are support roles at all levels, all the way down to custodian. What jobs are lost when these grants are denied? A lot of this work will (hopefully!) continue, just in other counties. Now those countries get to employ their citizens instead.

- are the youth unemployed compared to previous levels? Are these unemployed youths able to do the jobs the immigrants do?

The US doesn’t take in skilled immigrants as a favor to the rest of the world or something. Other countries educate their citizens to a high level then the US poaches them and has them contribute to growing the US economy. It’s the story of countless Silicon Valley startups so it’s especially surprising to see this sentiment on HN!

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#126

Post by meowface »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #121
meowface wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it is ideas and ideals. America represents ideas of liberty, liberalism, democracy, and individualism. The USSR/Russia and China represent the exact opposite. America has failed to live up to those ideals (slavery, plunder, toppling democratically elected leaders to install military dictatorships, unnecessary wars with mass civilian casualties) on multiple occasions, but if you at least look at things on pape…

This is proof of my point Look at this abject propaganda “ Part of it is ideas and ideals. America represents ideas of liberty, liberalism, democracy, and individualism. The USSR/Russia and China represent the exact opposite.” This is just pure John Birch society propaganda and at no point has the US actually ever attempted in any real way to realize this

Did you read the next sentence?

America has often stomped on the ideas it claims to fight for but to say it has never attempted to realize it is very silly and itself just reflexive anti-America propaganda. Look at FDR's words and actions during and after WWII, look at Eisenhower, look at Carter, look at JFK, imagine a future trajectory where Al Gore won that election.

America has sometimes done the exact opposite of helping other countries become healthy democracies - but they also very obviously have sometimes in fact helped other countries become healthy democracies. America's staunch pro-liberty pro-democracy stance is a big part of why the immediate aftermath of WWII led to Europe becoming a mostly democratic, stable quasi-union.

I am saying it's a gray area but that at least on paper America says nice words. You're just saying it's all bad.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#127

Post by nosianu »

adventured wrote: post #109
sallveburrpi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse for US Americans probably - rest of the world? Not so clear cut

The greatest timeline for Europe in its history? Post WW2 to now. The greatest timeline for Latin America overall? Post WW2 to now. The greatest timeline for Oceania overall? Post WW2 to now. The greatest timeline for India? Post WW2 to now. The greatest timeline for the rest of Asia overall? Post WW2 to now. Coming up on 80 years. Here's a short list, please tell me which prior ~80 year period in history these natio…

You have a gigantic confounder of general progress, much of it technological.

Just recently I made a post here in some thread to point out that even wein backwards East Germany made huge gains - my grandfather, born early 20th century, lived much, much better even by the end of the GDR compared to when he was born in the Weimar Republic.

Especially food became a non-issue in the modern world, productivity increases were gigantic. The Haber-Bosch process, very important at the start of that development, was not a US invention, nor contingent on anything US related.

It would be hard to disentangle US influence, but one can assume even if the US had not become so dominant, much of those developments would still have taken place, lifting up much of the entire world.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#128

Post by idiotsecant »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #40
meowface wrote: post #15

All I can say is let us all hope this is merely the American decade of humiliation and not the beginning of the American century of humiliation.

[flagged]

It's popular to hate the US but I'd like to know what country you think would be better at the role of global hegemon. What country would you suggest would do a better job? Be specific.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#129

Post by afavour »

silisili wrote: post #76
lisbbb wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the US needs first and foremost is a better future for its own citizens. We have abandoned our youth to unemployment and underemployment.

Agreed with this sentiment. The average American doesn't care about any of this. Why would they? You have someone working 40+ hours a week to just barely be able to afford a dumpy apartment, with no real prospects or signs of escape - tell them that the US may no longer be paying top dollar to import the smartest people around the globe and see what they care. In order for all of this to work cleanly, you need the ev…

> The average American doesn't care about any of this. Why would they?

Because scientific industries form a part of the US economy and hire a great many average Americans! And when you employ a good number of people there are a bunch of connected industries you spend money with, who in turn employ a lot of average Americans.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#130

Post by afavour »

heironimus wrote: post #89
afavour wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. Is Funding Fewer Grants in Every Area of Science and Medicine https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/12/02/upshot/trump-... Far too early to know the exact long term effects but it’s definitely happening.

Is there any metric saying what the proper amount is or is it always “more”? Is there a point where others should do more and the US less?

> With an annual budget of more than $47 billion, NIH is the largest single public funder of biomedical and behavioral research in the world. In fiscal year 2023, NIH funding generated an estimated $92.89 billion in economic activity.

https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/impact-nih-research/serving-so...

The US isn’t doing the world a favor by funding this stuff. The country directly benefits from it.

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