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Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

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Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#121

Post by sfRattan »

hbn wrote: post #103
ZeroConcerns wrote: post #5

Well, Valve got seriously concerned about the Windows Store, like, a decade ago, since that could have reduced the stranglehold of Steam on the gaming marketplace. Turns out that the usual Microsoft incompetence-and-ADHD have kind-of eliminated that threat all by itself. Also: turns out that, if you put enough effort into it, Linux is actually a quite-usable gaming platform. Still: are consumers better off today than…

I'm all for MS bashing and laughing at their incompetence, but was there really any threat there? I don't know anyone on PC who was interested in buying a game anywhere other than Steam in 2015.

It was specifically the release of Windows RT (Windows 8 on ARM) in 2012 that had people nervous that Microsoft wanted to lock Windows down long-term in the manner of iOS and Apple. Windows RT only ran code signed by Microsoft and only installed programs from Microsoft's store. It failed, and Microsoft let off the gas locking down Windows, but that moment was probably the specific impetus for Gabe Newell to set Valve on a decade long course of building support for Steam and the games in its storefront on Linux. Windows being locked down to the degree of iOS was an existential risk to Valve as a company and Steam as a platform in 2012. It isn't anymore.

Windows RT also drew ire from people other than Newell at the time IIRC. It was widely perceived as a trial balloon for closing down Windows almost completely. The first Steam Machines a decade ago were Valve's answering trial balloon. Both failed, but Valve learned and Microsoft largely did not... They haven't locked down Windows 11 to the point of Windows RT, but they're abusing their users to the point of potentially sabotaging their own market dominance for consumer PCs.

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#122

Post by lwkl »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #112
CharlesW wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure they've got Apple targeted so much, because Apple has been so thoroughly not-invested in gaming. And yet, Apple controls the world's largest gaming economy (~$78B in 2025), dwarfing Sony's (~$31B) and Microsoft's (~$24B).

Phone games are an entirely different thing from console or PC games. They aren't comparable.

While Apple probably makes most of their gaming revenue from gacha they fund a surprising number of non gambling games for their Apple Arcade subscription.

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#123

Post by lwkl »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #2

Valve has a spear lined up at so much of big tech right now it's honestly impressive they've done it in stealth for so long. Google, Microsoft and Apple are all in the crosshairs in a big way, and I don't think they can avoid the blow that's coming without cannibalizing their margins.

The work on Proton ends up in wine which is available for macOS and is part of Apples game porting toolkit. So part of the work Valve is doing to make games run on Linux helps games run better on macOS.

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#124

Post by simulator5g »

nitwit005 wrote: post #102
ZeroConcerns wrote: post #5

Well, Valve got seriously concerned about the Windows Store, like, a decade ago, since that could have reduced the stranglehold of Steam on the gaming marketplace. Turns out that the usual Microsoft incompetence-and-ADHD have kind-of eliminated that threat all by itself. Also: turns out that, if you put enough effort into it, Linux is actually a quite-usable gaming platform. Still: are consumers better off today than…

Outside of XBox, Minecraft, and journalists trying it out, I don't think I've heard of anyone using the Microsoft store. The Wikipedia page has quite the description of the view from within Microsoft: > Phil Spencer, head of Microsoft's gaming division, has also opined that Microsoft Store "sucks". As a result, Office was removed as an installable app from the store, and made to redirect to its website. https://en.wi…

I actually use the Microsoft store before looking elsewhere for software. It’s basically a package manager with a minimal jank. It’s there on a new install and it works. It sucks that they don’t let you add other sources though.

Having an app from an exe installer sucks because you have to update it manually, or, it uses resources while you’re using it to check for updates. With the windows store I can update everything at once and don’t need a million individual update checks on startup.

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#125

Post by sfRattan »

cmxch wrote: post #88
rangestransform wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kernel-level anticheat doesn't necessarily need to be on a fully closed platform, it could be implemented like SafetyNet on the Pixel series to check for system integrity but still allow for bootloader unlock and arbitrary user software

At what point do you have anything different than a console appliance?

Pixels and SafetyNet are different than a console appliance (e.g. Xbox, Playstation) in that Google allows both unlocking and relocking the bootloader, without affecting the integrity of a Pixel's onboard cryptographic hardware and secure enclave. This means you can, for example:

1. Unlock the bootloader and install an alternative OS (e.g. Graphene).

2. Relock the bootloader and still benefit from the Pixel's hardware security.

The above is not possible on modern video game consoles, or other phones, for the most part. Hardware cryptography has historically been used to lock customers out of their own machines for the purposes of profit, but that doesn't mean it has to be.

In the threat environment as it exists today --- a world in which almost everyone has an always on, always networked computer which must continually reveal its location in order to interface with the global network --- something like the Pixel's design ought to be the minimum standard for a computer in your pocket. Sadly, the only other device on the market with similar hardware security features is the iPhone, and it's as locked down as a games console. Samsung's Knox is another secure hardware platform/architecture, but they burn out a fuse on their phones to disable it when you unlock the bootloader.

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#126

Post by ee64a4a »

glenstein wrote: post #104
ee64a4a wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> that this is actually Steam Machine 2.0. Valve already tried this a decade ago, and it flopped. > I find this framing to be beyond maddening [...] > It was also a thoughtful partnering with hardware vendors As numerous post-mortems (some of which I quoted in the article) recount, the hardware partners themselves largely consider their experiment back then a flop as well. > But it was a thoughtful, intelligent long…

Fair point on the vendors - surely they hoped to make $$ from it. But I think you're underestimating the significance of standing up Proton and the critical experience working through bugs and getting experience with hardware, and gradually growing the inventory of compatible games. Simply put, there's no Steam Deck without the Steam Machine, which says everything about the value of the Steam Machine.

> But I think your underestimating the significance of standing up Proton

I don't think I'm underestimating it at all. Proton and SteamOS were huge, they were extremely well-timed, and they've been a boon for everyone involved (except M$ shareholders, I guess).

However, none of that necessitated whatever the Steam Box release was. It's not like it moved a significant number of units and that's why Valve invested in Proton/SteamOS; Steam Box was long discontinued before the first public release of Proton (2018, IIRC).

> Simply put, there's no Steam Deck without the Steam Machine

Agreed, and I call that out in the article, but that doesn't make its original release not a flop. Hence my lemonade comment -- you don't make lemonade from apples; you have to have a lemon first.

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#127

Post by ee64a4a »

ZeroConcerns wrote: post #68
ee64a4a wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, Valve got seriously concerned about the Windows Store, like, a decade ago... Yeah, I briefly addressed that concern in the article as a comparison to Facebook; probably could've expanded on it, but it was already quite long and didn't feel like it fit naturally into the topic at hand

That wasn't meant as a criticism, more like some additional context. With how irrelevant the Microsoft Store is these days, I can't blame anyone for skipping over it...

Ah, okay, gotcha!

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#128

Post by lunar_rover »

deadbabe wrote: post #46

Valve should really make something like a Steamphone. No iOS, no Android, just raw SteamOS with gaming and privacy focus, and fully customizable by users if they want. Make it look really sleek and cool, and dockable.

I don't see this happening in the foreseeable future.

Making competitive phones is even harder than making a desktop, and they aren't investing in Linux desktop itself either, just the components they need. SteamOS works by not running a desktop in its default mode.

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#129

Post by ee64a4a »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #42

> with current-gen consoles (which are sold at a loss, and so would be expected to be cheaper) This is not true. It was true in 2019 when the PS5 was initially announced, but PS5 has been sold at a (slim) profit since 2021. Xbox probably sold at a loss for longer, but it definitely isn't sold at a loss in 2025. The Switch & Switch 2 have always been profitable. The BOM cost of the Steam Machine has been estimated at…

Hi, thanks for pointing this out! Two questions:

1. Do you think that inaccuracy undercuts the point? If so, I'll correct the article; if not, I'll include it as a note in my planned follow-up. 2. Do you have the link(s) handy for those figures? If not, I can try to find them myself, but I figured it would be easier to ask first.

Re: Valve is running Apple's playbook in reverse

#130

Post by conception »

simulator5g wrote: post #124
nitwit005 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of XBox, Minecraft, and journalists trying it out, I don't think I've heard of anyone using the Microsoft store. The Wikipedia page has quite the description of the view from within Microsoft: > Phil Spencer, head of Microsoft's gaming division, has also opined that Microsoft Store "sucks". As a result, Office was removed as an installable app from the store, and made to redirect to its website. https://en.wi…

I actually use the Microsoft store before looking elsewhere for software. It’s basically a package manager with a minimal jank. It’s there on a new install and it works. It sucks that they don’t let you add other sources though. Having an app from an exe installer sucks because you have to update it manually, or, it uses resources while you’re using it to check for updates. With the windows store I can update everyth…

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/package-manager/wi...

https://chocolatey.org

https://scoop.sh

Just in case you don’t know about these. :)

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