Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#121

Post by moheeb » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 4:58 PM UTC

jetti wrote: post #58

techdmn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem a little odd, but as a resident of one of those states I think it's awesome. I can peruse the lot with zero chance of being approached by a salesperson. IMHO it actually facilitates car sales, because one day a week people can look at new cars without immediately feeling like prey.

You can do that online any time. What you see in the lot on Sunday is the same as what you would see online. But as a resident of one of those states as well, I hate it. Not because I want to buy a car on Sunday but because if the dealership is open the service section of the dealership would also be open.

No, what you see online is a digital representation of a physical product. What you see on the lot is an actual physical product that can be touched and smelled.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#122

Post by BryanB55 » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 5:07 PM UTC

There was a similar discussion on how terrible car dealers are a few weeks ago on HN when tesla announced their stores. The car dealer model is clearly flawed. As an auto enthusiast and someone who spends way to much money on my cars I absolutely hate car dealers and the BS you have to go through to buy a car.

Not only that but it seems that every time I go into a car dealership I know more about the cars than the sales people. Most of the time they're just some random guy off the street that decided to sell cars and got their training from a generic book or reading the sales materials. It's like they spent more time learning how to negotiate, con their customers and make the most commission they possibly can than they do learning about the car and what they are actually selling.

I feel bad for consumers that are not "car people" and go to a dealership seeking info from sales people.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#123

Post by unboring » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 5:24 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #66

talmand wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be a rather unpleasant experience, plus it makes me feel bad to immediately hate the person before I get to know his/her style of selling. I know it's unfair but when that salesperson walks up I'm immediately "just go away and leave me alone". Plus the sad fact is that the salesperson is the middleman of the manager, who is the middleman of the financier, who is the middleman of the dealership. There are proba…

Why can't cars be sold just like any other product? If you want to walk in, look at a sticker, and walk out with your new car, you should visit a Saturn dealership. Unless they changed it recently, they never haggle.

Or a Scion dealership. I bought a Scion TC a few years back and it was the smoothest experience ever. No haggling, just pay the advertised price and walk out. Every Scion dealer was obligated to advertise the same price, so you knew you were getting the same price as everyone else.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#124

Post by wiredfool » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 5:29 PM UTC

jmaygarden wrote: post #46

freehunter wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radio Shack made themselves obsolete. I don't think Best Buy is obsolete, but merely needs a restructuring. Radio Shack used to be great when you were working on a project and just needed one more part; a capacitor, a motor/servo, a PIC, etc. I don't need another phone reseller, I don't need useless RC cars, I don't need odd TV remotes. I need an electronics store that sells electronic parts. Best Buy is great for re…

The number of people that would buy a capacitor, motor/servo or PIC is not what it used to be. Electronics don't ship with schematics anymore or have nice big through-hole components that are easy for a layman to replace. I miss the old Radio Shack too, but we are in a tiny minority.

I actually went into RS this weekend for an electronic part, and _almost_ came away with something. They had a 5A relay, I need a 15amp part. It would have been far cheaper than the $10 shipping from newark or one of the online places.

So Close, yet so far.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#125

Post by untog » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 5:35 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #98

jbigelow76 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't cars be sold just like any other product? Because then they run the risk of getting Amazon'd or Wal-Mart'd.

>>Because then they run the risk of getting Amazon'd or Wal-Mart'd. Your post sounds like Amazon and Wall-Mart are doing some thing wrong in the way they are running things. And what is the risk you are talking about. Do you mean to imply Amazon and Wall-Mart are evil and have some caused damage to their consumers/customers?

I don't think it sounds like that at all. He's talking from the dealers perspective, who will absolutely lose out in the case of being "Walmart'd".

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#126

Post by driverdan » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 5:44 PM UTC

revelation wrote: post #80

jwr wrote: post #20

Today I found out that USA (arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned) has strict laws governing the sale of vehicles, said laws actually preventing companies from selling vehicles. I find that quite amazing.

That is a common experience for me (Germany here). There is no guaranteed vacation (full on neoliberalism), few barriers to firing people (dito), but theres also minimum wage, something that is completely foreign to most right and middle-leaning parties here. So the evidence seems to suggest that the whole libertarian and socialism debate is nothing but political banter, with little ideological foundation.

The free market works for jobs too when you let it. If company A offers a job with no vacation and company B offers 4 weeks a year the employee will choose company B. If neither offers vacation you can choose to find another company / industry or start your own.

Job protection laws protect and promote mediocrity.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#127

Post by calbear81 » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 5:46 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #49

cs702 wrote: post #3

Anyone who's ever bought a car knows firsthand how unpleasant it is to deal with traditional car dealers. The price of every vehicle is fully negotiable but the negotiating room is opaque.[1] Key car features and options are bundled in arbitrary packages and priced in ways that make pricing even more opaque. Car salesmen (they're typically men) almost always have a fake smile on their face and come across as smooth-t…

I kind of enjoyed buying my last vehicle. For some reason, the salesman had it in his mind that I could not afford the one I was looking at. I was the one trying to talk him into adding options, while he was trying to take them away to keep the costs lower. Once I finally talked him into the one I wanted, he, without asking, starts filling out the loan application. I'm like "umm, I'm going to be paying for it in cash…

I try to not pay cash ever when there are financing deals available at today's ridiculously low interest rates. Many car makers will have 0% or 1.9% financing and you should take that since there's a reasonable chance you will make more than that back by taking the cash you saved and investing it instead. At 0% financing, it's a no brainer, why give them all your cash up front instead of throwing it into an interest bearing account instead and making some money instead.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#128

Post by marcomonteiro » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 6:12 PM UTC

As an American, this disturbs me to no end. There are laws on the books to prevent a manufacturer from selling their own product directly to consumers? And what of the benefit? To protect a certain class of sales people.

I'm a licensed real estate agent (non-practicing) and I can understand the need for government regulation to protect consumers from ignorant and unscrupulous sales people but in no way is a home builder prevented from selling their homes directly to home buyers. Real estate law, at least in California, covers required disclosures which apply both to manufacturers and salespeople.

I can understand limiting sale of certain classes of products that can be dangerous if in the hands of the general public but not limiting sales to monopolize a class of salespeople. Especially to the detriment of manufacturers and consumers.

Am I missing something? I can't see who wins except for car dealerships.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#129

Post by tomrod » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 6:12 PM UTC

aleyan wrote: post #33

tomrod wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is that helping anyone but the dealerships? It's not.

> > How is that helping anyone but the dealerships? > It's not. That was my initial though as well, but I came up with at least one case where survival of the dealerships is critical to an open market place. If all stores were owned by car manufacturers, that would be a significant barrier to entry of new automakers. Not only do new entrants have to build a car company, but now they have to create a new distribution…

How would vertical integration between car manufacturers and dealerships be a barrier to entry specifically, given today's tech? I think there would be new car entrants doing what Tesla is doing.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#130

Post by beagle3 » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 6:15 PM UTC

damoncali wrote: post #120

travisp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under most rankings of economic freedom, the United States barely manages to be in the top 10. The Heritage Foundation places Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada, Chile, Mauritius, and Ireland all above the United States on their Index of Economic Freedom. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Singapore? You are free in Singapore to the degree that their benevolent dictatorship wishes you to be.

That's basically true everywhere. Except that in Singapore, it is explicit.

Are you free to fill your gas tank in New Jersey (hint: no).

Are you free as an american taxpayer to bank outside the US? (hint: no).

Are you free to sell cars in the US? (hint: no)

Are you free to get medical diagnostics of your choice in New York state (paying the market price, of course)? (hint: no)

Are you free to live in California, yet own a liquor store in New York? (hint: no)

There are numerous other examples. The common thread in these examples is that some lobby managed to secure a legislation that guarantees their benefit at your expense. You have about as much power to change that as a Singaporian does to change things in their country.

Really, if you believe that the US is more free than the rest of the western world, you're probably unaware of the local law (and probably of the laws elsewhere)