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Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

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Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#121

Post by Pet_Ant »

kuerbel wrote: post #85
xp84 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but the places where it’s arguably nicer (than US) to be bottom 50% are that way because of side-effects of America being how America has always been. Without things like US NATO membership, someone in, let’s say Europe, might eventually find themselves made forcibly familiar with what actual fascism is, by being “welcomed” into Soviet Union 2.0, now without the communist trappings. If you think Soviet bread…

I live in Germany and I'm not afraid of Russia. If they had more manpower they would have overrun Ukraine by now. They do not. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, but Russia stands no chance. Not even with Belarus on their side or some other satellite states.

When they come for Europe, they will come with nukes. It's clear they only need to protect St Petersburg and Moscow with SMD. The rest they are happy to let burn. Can England and France threaten Russia with retaliation? Trump has made it clear that Europe (maybe minus the UK, just maybe) is in the Russian sphere of influence, and we can't really count on the English to not Neville Chamberlain their way out of this.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#122

Post by mhurron »

mvkel wrote: post #48

As an immigrant to the US, I've often viewed the fervent wish to depart (among natural born citizens) to be the ultimate form of self-entitlement. That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most. It's being tested right now, and leaving is the only way to fail. Also, why do you think any other country would -love- to have you?

So how can an immigrant to the US not understand that someone might want to leave the country they're currently in because of the situation in that country?

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#123

Post by mothballed »

OutOfHere wrote: post #113
mothballed wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guns and (relatively) freedom of speech (yes I'm aware it comes with asterisk) are the two big ones. If I left the USA it would probably be to a place with weak governance on these points in practice rather than on paper. Only Yemen, Iraq, Somaliland, parts of Pakistan, parts of Rojava and maybe KRG (Kurdistan), Idlib, and Palestine are only places I know of with looser (to me better) gun laws than America and out of…

When was the last time that guns protected someone in the US from an ICE raid? Basically never. Now imagine ICE five years in the future as a much more ingrained police state when they actively start hunting citizens.

It bought quite a few people some extra hours or days during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. And a couple women their lives, since one of the officers that saw them fight decided a few of the Jews were people with courage rather than just more trash for the incinerators and actually went out their way to send a couple of the brave fighters to the work camps instead of the gas chambers. (See woman on right here[], for example)

[] https://1943.pl/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/05/Kobiet...

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#124

Post by moribvndvs »

mvkel wrote: post #48

As an immigrant to the US, I've often viewed the fervent wish to depart (among natural born citizens) to be the ultimate form of self-entitlement. That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most. It's being tested right now, and leaving is the only way to fail. Also, why do you think any other country would -love- to have you?

> That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most.

There have been concerted efforts over the last couple decades (arguably much longer) to erode these things; gerrymandering, voter roll purges, eliminating/restricting polling locations and absentee voting, corporations and wealthy individuals have basically unlimited spend on electioneering and lobbying giving them a disproportionate voice, a worsening state of effectively dysfunctional/maligned politicians, corporate censorship, so on and so forth. In my state, a majority passed two state constitutional amendments and the establishment (gerrymandered) politicians didn't like that, spending the past couple of years rules lawyering, delaying, etc. to try to subvert the will of the people. Hell, they ignored multiple state supreme court orders on top of voter’s wishes.

Anyways, my point being that wanting to leave a country with increasing social, economic, and political troubles isn’t entitlement, anymore than you were entitled for immigrating to the US.

Personally, I agree that I’d rather stay and fight, not that I really can afford to do otherwise, yet I understand people frustrated about the notable decline we have seen in our lifetimes and worried about the knife’s edge we find ourselves upon regarding tyranny and authoritarianism.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#125

Post by danaris »

mothballed wrote: post #114
neilv wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you moved to a place that was physically safe, would gun ownership still be a top priority?

Seems paradoxical. If I'm not allowed to have guns, then I am physically unsafe, because someone from government will use violence against me if they both discover it and have the ability to do something about it. I wouldn't feel safe anywhere violence is used for malum prohibitum 'crimes.' In fact I don't feel safe basically anywhere a government exists because they all do this; this is part the reason why I live in…

> someone from government will use violence against me if they both discover it and have the ability to do something about it

This is a statement so far removed from reality that it makes anything else you say immediately suspect.

You appear to view "government" as an entity whose primary purpose is to bring violence against anyone who cannot resist that violence with lethal force. There is no possible justification for that as a blanket definition.

If you are omitting, perhaps, the fact that you are a wanted and dangerous person, who has, for instance, committed a string of murders, and that is why the government would "use violence against you", then that would seem to make anything you say quite inapplicable to anyone else's situation.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#126

Post by AnimalMuppet »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #100
mvkel wrote: post #48

As an immigrant to the US, I've often viewed the fervent wish to depart (among natural born citizens) to be the ultimate form of self-entitlement. That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most. It's being tested right now, and leaving is the only way to fail. Also, why do you think any other country would -love- to have you?

The evidence broadly shows that the people who vote for this will not change their mind. Not when their farming business is likely going to fail due to tariffs (~78% of farmers voted for this), not when their North Carolina saw mill that has been in the family for forty years is forced to close (Mackey’s Ferry Sawmill), not when their ACA subsidies and SNAP benefits are pulled. One's presence and voice is immaterial.…

> if you can live somewhere safer, better, or other idea of more favorable while losing nothing, why not?

If.

Are you really losing nothing?

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#127

Post by saulpw »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #83
1970-01-01 wrote: post #2

Leaving now is the best way to ensure things get worse. If you've given up, your vote no longer counts and your voice no longer matters.

??? Tons of US citizens vote from abroad every year?

They are provisional ballots, not counted unless things are close. And sometimes not even counted then.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#129

Post by mosura »

masfuerte wrote: post #73
meindnoch wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yikes. There are lot of black people in Paris, but they're not necessarily American. In fact, most of them are from African French colonies.

WTF? How do you get from Americans to black people?

There is a trend here of people imagining what you say and then criticizing you for it.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#130

Post by esseph »

lm28469 wrote: post #89
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Taxes are also very high. In addition to the usual income taxes, you pay a wealth tax and the threshold is very low (around 55k EUR in savings/assets) so this isn't only targeting very rich people. This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future. This was a deal breaker for me as someone on the FIRE path. It's neighbor, Belgium, is much better in this respect.

FIRE people are funny, I wouldn't retire in belgium even if I was paid for it personally. Do you just order by tax rate and move wherever the number is the smallest ? I never heard of anyone moving to Belgium for anything other than family or cross border workers

Belgium is one of the top 20 countries in the world for quality of life and social safety net.

There are ~200 countries doing worse.

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