An idea that has been living rent free in my head is that "AI is ultimately nothing but a pure destruction of value". It's promise is unlimited value to everyone on demand; but if everyone can do everything without any effort, it is no longer valuable. Value and scarcity go hand in hand. I realize the hyperbolic framing of the idea, but none-the-less I haven't been able to get it out of my head. This article feels li…
> but if everyone can do everything without any effort, it is no longer valuable. And how is this a bad thing? Would it be good for oxygen to be valuable, or water? What's with this fetishistic obsession with "value"? What's bad about living in a world where nothing holds any value whatsoever?
AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
121–130 of 195 posts
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#122I wonder if the "vibe coders" can fix their own code. Or find a very subtle logic error in it. Hell, I wonder if someone with access to AI can fix a bicycle if they haven't even touched a spanner.
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#123An idea that has been living rent free in my head is that "AI is ultimately nothing but a pure destruction of value". It's promise is unlimited value to everyone on demand; but if everyone can do everything without any effort, it is no longer valuable. Value and scarcity go hand in hand. I realize the hyperbolic framing of the idea, but none-the-less I haven't been able to get it out of my head. This article feels li…
> but if everyone can do everything without any effort, it is no longer valuable. And how is this a bad thing? Would it be good for oxygen to be valuable, or water? What's with this fetishistic obsession with "value"? What's bad about living in a world where nothing holds any value whatsoever?
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes but what happens to society when art, labor, "intelligence" and productivity all become abundant? These are not comparable to salt. You are comparing an apple to every orange tree that has ever existed.
We focus on colonisation of Universe and becoming a Kardashev Type III civilisation. Literally that.
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you suggesting that no meaningful distinction can be made in terms of morality between Trump and, say, Biden, Obama, Blair, the Bushes etc.? Some people will point to their supposed crimes or immoral actions while in office, having to do with execution of their duties as president. Large countries tend to do many questionable things. But the current US administration is pretty unique in terms of its corruption, a…
I would argue that yes, there’s no meaningful distinction between Biden and Trump. (And perhaps that Trump is more moral than Biden.) I’d find your argument would be more persuasive if you outlined what you believe Trump had done worse than the others — rather than argument-by-name-calling.
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
Only if you assume that the only kind of value is the ability to be sold for a price. Marx would have a word about use value vs exchange value.
Interestingly OP's idea that "AI destroys value" seems to come at least partly from the labor theory value, which Marx accepted (as most classical economists). Unfortunately, the labor theory of value is self-contradictory. If you invent a new machine that replaces human labor, it will clearly produce more value, yet human labour is reduced. So this follows that not all value can be attributed to human labor. What th…
Also in Marx theories exchange-value is something different than use-value, the latter being unaffected by automation.
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#127So as a preface, I would argue than in the marketplace for information (ideas, content, works, etc if you will) that value has two components, 1) utility value, and 2) scarcity value (which I would argue has two components, availability value (information horizon[0]) and saliency value (preference as a result of the information horizon[1]). Obviously the rise of copyright over the last few centuries attempts to limit commerce of ideas based somewhat loosely on the concept of (real, physical) property law (itself a glorified codified extension of the animal behaviour of territoriality, aka survival by means of securing resources); ownership is a moral value autogenous to an idea's sui generis expression on, by, or through a recorded medium. In other words the mere act of recording an idea in a "creative" fashion brings with it a "moral" ownership of that idea. Of course the "creative" and "moral" parts from which the law prescribes and proscribes these limits is debatable. The legally mandated "monopoly" of an idea (even though the marginal cost of replication approaches zero) provides this scarcity. So in the end because of this the scarcity, and the resulting "rent seeking" (corporations seeking to charging (typically over time) more than the cost to create and distribute information), are in effect value (read wealth) redistribution.
So, what is more "moral"? Using a constructivist approach, which is more socially acceptable (and hence far more likely to be codified into law)? broad access to information distilled to the point that sui generis is "removed" so that concepts (which in general can't be copyrighted) are freely available for transformative use, or extending the "moral right" of copyright, now that information distillation is so cheap, to include the ability to "copyright" an idea rather than the expression of it. Or are we seeing a "breakdown" of the codification of the law where the granularity of the spectrum is so fine it becomes so costly to enforce such the "value" of the law in reducing the transaction costs of daily social interaction in the information sphere that we revert to pre-copyright behaviours, i.e. information hoarding.
[0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261773523_Informati... The concept is quite simple there is a limit to the amount and quality of information that a) a human can get access to (and following what they prefer / value), and b) relatedly the amount that can be synthesised for actual use. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S07408...
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#128The article is not about AI, it's about this stage of capitalism. Unlike the author, I would argue that it is very much in line with the consequences of Robert Nozick's thinking. On the other hand, the way China is doing its AI development and rollout seems more aligned with a Rawlsian notion of distributing the benefits.
I can perfectly understand why everyone in the West is so jaded and worried about how AI benefits will be distributed. That doesn't change the fact that, like any technology, it can also be used to make everyone wealthier, like industrialization also did.
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
An AI that isn't a subscription service hosted in the USofA
i don't get it, what does USofA or subscription have to do with anything
If you're doing work in The Cloud and the servers are in America, you can still move all that to physically reside in whatever jurisdiction you live in. The tech is there.
But if you build stuff on top of Anthropic, OpenAI or Google AIs, their data resides and will always reside in the US. They have very specific laws that allow them to grab data from anywhere and nobody can say shit about it.
There's no realistic way for anyone to run "ChatGPT" at home. You can get pretty close with the 200B++ param models but they're still just a pale shadow of what an acre of industrially cooled compute will do in comparison.
But if your risk modelling doesn't flash a big red light about building a business on top of someone else's hardware and software that is physically in a currently very unstable and legally unreliable country, that's fine.
I've been using my VC subsidised LLM credits to build local-first systems I can still use when either the money runs out or the political craziness crashes down.
Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
We focus on colonisation of Universe and becoming a Kardashev Type III civilisation. Literally that.
We're just missing around 9001 steps between the devaluation of labor and the space exploration, which according to current understanding of physics is pure fantasy because all concepts of faster then light travel are purely "what-if" daydreams
And after all that we still reach Type III and it was all worth it.