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How good engineers write bad code at big companies

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Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#121

Post by alfalfasprout »

azemetre wrote: post #83
jeltz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are we automating this problem and going all-in on the long term costs? I feel that is a very likely scenario.

This was the case before AI tho, people were copying coding patterns from companies randomly even without understanding. I mean there was an interview with some DoorDash architect that literally stated that whatever their architecture was just fad chasing at that moment. Every company I've ever worked at (from ISPs to health insurance to finance) every organize was just copying the fad of something else. At the time…

Yes, it was the case. AI just magnified the severity by an order of magnitude or two.

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#122

Post by nfRfqX5n »

austin-cheney wrote: post #14

The short tenure is a symptom of a larger problem. The deeper problem is that very little is expected of big company software employees. Conversely those same employees tend to expect a lot in return. You can call that entitlement, poor expectation management, first world problems, and all kinds of other names. I have not worked for a FAANG, so maybe things are different there, but I don't suspect so. People are peop…

I don’t think the expectations are any less, it’s just different. Much more responsibility around ops and security

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#123

Post by Aeolun »

pmarreck wrote: post #95

Meanwhile, I have a ton of experience, am personable, am highly technical, and can't find something for some reason despite requesting a fairly moderate salary ($180k) given being 53 and having worked in technology for decades.

Something like if you are not a manager at 53 there must be something wrong with you? That’s what people keep telling me to watch out for.

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#124

Post by alfalfasprout »

jeltz wrote: post #3

I don't really buy that this is the main reason. A good senior engineer is for the most part able to not write bad code from day one, just at a very low speed and with the need to ask other people frequenyly. Even if you do not know the code base or domain yet there are a lot of things you can do to avoid writing bad code. Yes, as someone new you will make mistakes and misunderstand things but a lot of the bad code I…

> A good senior engineer is for the most part able to not write bad code from day one, just at a very low speed and with the need to ask other people frequenyly. Even if you do not know the code base or domain yet there are a lot of things you can do to avoid writing bad code. Yes, as someone new you will make mistakes and misunderstand things but a lot of the bad code I have personally seen has not been caused by that. Most bad code I have seen has been caused by people rushing and not having their fundamentals in order. Like not actually doing reviews, not spending a few extra hours to think about architecture, etc. Also a big issue is that people just let the complexity of systems explode for the gain of short term proje

You have a very charitable view of the competency of the typical engineer at big tech nowadays. Ten years ago, sure. But with the advent of people purely studying for coding interviews that's changed.

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#125

Post by kcexn »

sfpotter wrote: post #93

I've read a few of this guys posts now and have consistently been rubbed the wrong way by them. I think I know why now. It's not that he's wrong . His analysis is reasonable and straightforward. I think it's that the basis for his analysis is ultimately a form of nihilism, coming from someone who (maybe?) used to be an idealist but was burnt by a bad experience and must now explain why believing in anything is misgui…

It's hard to write about the broader context with any expertise in a blog post written from personal experience.

My own thinking is that the big competitive advantage that big tech firms have over small ones is the power to mobilize very large numbers of developers onto a project.

Large projects that don't depend on a small core group of irreplaceable competent individuals are more repeatable for a business. So it makes sense to focus on making the repeatable processes more likely to succeed than simply hope that you happen to have the right team assembled for the job.

Assuming that any of your engineers are above or below average hurts the ability for the business to plan.

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#126

Post by Herring »

kcexn wrote: post #125
sfpotter wrote: post #93

I've read a few of this guys posts now and have consistently been rubbed the wrong way by them. I think I know why now. It's not that he's wrong . His analysis is reasonable and straightforward. I think it's that the basis for his analysis is ultimately a form of nihilism, coming from someone who (maybe?) used to be an idealist but was burnt by a bad experience and must now explain why believing in anything is misgui…

It's hard to write about the broader context with any expertise in a blog post written from personal experience. My own thinking is that the big competitive advantage that big tech firms have over small ones is the power to mobilize very large numbers of developers onto a project. Large projects that don't depend on a small core group of irreplaceable competent individuals are more repeatable for a business. So it ma…

Yep you just rediscovered alienation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#127

Post by bmitch3020 »

I'd simplify this post down to this: companies optimize the trade-off between time, cost, and quality by sacrificing quality.

It's not that the goal is to write low quality code, it's that big businesses understand the sales cycle and how to maximize profits. If they over spend on employees, that cuts into their profits or causes the product to be too expensive. And if they spend the time to write quality code rather than developing features, they lose sales. Customers don't buy quality, they buy features at a price, and quality issues (like bugs) get thrown over the wall to downstream support staff.

As much as I dislike this, knowing how unstable it makes the overall software ecosystem, companies aren't wrong for making these decisions. The companies that choose differently don't become big businesses, they either stay small, get acquired, or go out of business.

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#128

Post by cbm-vic-20 »

01100011 wrote: post #86

IDK, my team at a FANG has an average tenure of around 7 years and the ones less than that are new hires. I keep getting refresher grants every year. I'm sure this article rings true for some people but not me.

I'm an "old-hand" at a non-FAANG big tech, and have not had a meaningful refresher in a few years, or even a salary bump for that matter. This is a bad time to be looking for a new job, but I should have jumped ship years or even decades ago. I'm sure I'm under-compensated for my level of experience. Don't get caught in this trap like I did.

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#129

Post by master_crab »

sfpotter wrote: post #93

I've read a few of this guys posts now and have consistently been rubbed the wrong way by them. I think I know why now. It's not that he's wrong . His analysis is reasonable and straightforward. I think it's that the basis for his analysis is ultimately a form of nihilism, coming from someone who (maybe?) used to be an idealist but was burnt by a bad experience and must now explain why believing in anything is misgui…

You are being a bit unfair to the author, but I think I know where you are coming from in this argument.

The writing comes across as “well this is the way it is and this is why it is.” That’s fine, but most of us kinda already know why it’s the way it is.

Maybe, tell us something about how to adjust the culture.

Re: How good engineers write bad code at big companies

#130

Post by otikik »

bmitch3020 wrote: post #127

I'd simplify this post down to this: companies optimize the trade-off between time, cost, and quality by sacrificing quality. It's not that the goal is to write low quality code, it's that big businesses understand the sales cycle and how to maximize profits. If they over spend on employees, that cuts into their profits or causes the product to be too expensive. And if they spend the time to write quality code rather…

Bad quality eventually piles up higher enough so that it starts affecting shipping features, though. Then those companies stay small, get acquired, or go out of business.
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