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What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

andrej.sh

121–130 of 171 posts

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#121
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities are a special case. They generally don’t spend money because of the red tape. In much of corporate America expenses under $100 give or take don’t even require documentation, so a $50/month support subscription is easily purchased. Just need to find the person with the purchase card.

In my experience, having MIT and UCI as customers, US universities are much easier to deal with small to no process for simple cheap things. On the other hand, I was contacted by a well known engineering school in France (ENSEEIHT), they wanted support but were laughing at the idea to spend 20$ per month for the privilege, left the impression they wanted to use my time for way under minimum wage, same yesterday with…

> I stumbled upon a fork maintained by the university of Shangai, of course they never reached out in the first place to ask for any kind of support, just took the code and went their own way.

I think this one is 100% ok for open source, no?

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#122
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the company wants a proper invoice. And not every single developer is interested in founding a Limited and getting the tax office breathing down their neck every year. Also, look at Gitea. People got paranoid and forked the project after the original author did exactly that.

Come on, stop with this slave mentality please. You can make invoices without funding any company and without the tax office getting in your hair. It's not illegal to charge for your services and never has been. You can declare that income just fine, or skip it. The tax office won't bother you.

Not sure about elsewhere but ot took me 15 minutes to setup my LTD in the UK and I paid a monthly fee for accountancy which was about £100 and another yearly fee of about £100 for them to do my tax return (as I am lazy and didn't want to do it).

Unless you are getting paid in cash or monero, HMRC will absolutely know if you are getting paid under the table.

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#123
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, having MIT and UCI as customers, US universities are much easier to deal with small to no process for simple cheap things. On the other hand, I was contacted by a well known engineering school in France (ENSEEIHT), they wanted support but were laughing at the idea to spend 20$ per month for the privilege, left the impression they wanted to use my time for way under minimum wage, same yesterday with…

> I stumbled upon a fork maintained by the university of Shangai, of course they never reached out in the first place to ask for any kind of support, just took the code and went their own way. I think this one is 100% ok for open source, no?

this is fine indeed if you didn't ask for my time

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#124
post #26

Kinda frustratingly written by ai

I very much doubt it. Never seen an AI consistently miss capitalising the first letter of each sentence for example. The style is efficient in a way that just screams software dev to me. AI's are needlessly verbose. This guy is bordering on needlessly concise. Rather like the style actually. I do hate that if you publish anything online these days, someone will accuse you of having used AI to write it. We're at the p…

>I do hate that if you publish anything online these days, someone will accuse you of having used AI to write it.

Noticing this too. Sabine said something a while ago in one of her videos that stuck with me [0]. about people expecting proof of suffering by next year. She was talk submitting an essay, but it might as well be anything ai could have done.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICjubxfeICo&t=245

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should hire an accountant to handle the bureaucracy, and of course charge enough to make that viable. And you should stop airing your murderous dreams in public, that's disturbed no matter your feelings towards politicians.

This is very entertaining. "Sir, this is a Christian website".

"My god, a slight hyperbole! Let me run over to my jewelry box and get some pearls to clutch!"

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#126
These are good takeaways from someone who seems to actually care about the users of their project, which is refreshing to see. I've gotten into discussions on this forum with people who think and do otherwise. (Case in point[1].)

> they're not demanding. they're engaged. that's a gift.

100%!

Open source maintenance is a difficult and sometimes thankless job. It requires a lot of communication, careful balancing of the project's vision and user requests; tolerance, patience, honesty, transparency, gratitude, humility, but also confidence, sternness, and above all else, dedication to improve the project for everyone, not just a select few. It seems that the author gets quite a few of these right.

A few notes from my own experience:

- Documentation is important, and they're right that it is never "done". That said, you also have to assume that it's written for a specific audience. If a baseline level of technical proficiency is needed for your project, then you shouldn't need to explain topics that bring people up to that level. Sometimes it's a better use of your time to address the occasional support question, than to add documentation that would be irrelevant for the majority of your users. Besides, if those support questions are visible to the community (e.g. they're on a discussion forum), then your answers there can serve as unofficial documentation for people who need it.

- Speaking of which, a discussion forum is crucial when building a community around an open source project, or any project, for that matter. It is another source of information for users, you can use it for announcements, etc. And once you have power users and people passionate about your project, the community itself can help out with support duties. Definitely make this as accessible as possible, make it public, and don't use a closed platform like Discord. A real-time chat platform could be useful, but an async searchable old-school forum is much better for discussion and support.

- Code contributions are a double-edged sword. On one side, it's incredible that some users are passionate about the project enough to invest their time and effort in improving it, and are willing to share their improvements with everyone else. But on the other, when their code is merged into the mainline project, it becomes an additional maintenance burden for core maintainers. Those contributors will hopefully be acknowledged for their work and everyone will appreciate it, but if there are issues with that part of the code, it will be the original maintainers' job to fix it and improve it, not the contributors'. The article mentions this already, but this is another reason to be extra vigilant and judicious about which code to accept, and which not. Most contributors will understand.

Kudos to the author, and best of luck with the project! It's certainly on my radar now.

BTW, looking at Kaneo's web site now, the "free forever" next to the Cloud link is not a good sign. Maintaining infrastructure is a financial burden. Nothing should be "free", and definitely not "forever". Please: add a commercial tier where people can pay you for the resources they consume. This is orthogonal to open source, and you should be compensated, not just for the infrastructure you maintain, but for your work. Everyone will understand this, as long as you keep it fair. In fact, it serves as assurance for any potential users that the project is in a healthy state, and that it will likely continue to be maintained.

I'd be happy to discuss this further and offer any guidance if I can. My contact info is in my profile.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46051393#46052504

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#127
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is easier in EU than in US.

It depends. Sibling thread has some horror stories about Germany, for example. Estonia has been trying to get foreigners to open their businesses there for a while now: https://e-estonia.com/ But I don’t think that helps US residents too much (ask your tax advisor about CFC rules; I have only a vague understanding that it’s a PITA).

It also mostly doesn't help EU residents. If you live in another EU country, your tax office will treat your Estonian company as a local one since that's where the business takes place in truth.

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya OP is shadow boxing. There is absolutely no need for any of these things. Tons of open source exists as only source code and a license, nothing else. No docs, no issue tracker, nothing. People who need it use it, learn from it, remix it, whatever, but there need not be any engagement at all from the given repo's maintainer.

Seriously. If I throw something up somewhere, you get a tarball, a README, and no way to get in touch with me. If the code helps you, fantastic! If it doesn't, then I hope you at least got something out of the experience. But "as-is" means what it says on the tin. I'm not sure why people are so hellbent on treating every message from every stranger as important.

/sigh

Because open source is not just about the code and the license. It is first and foremost about a community of people who want to make software better for everyone, not just for themselves or a select few. The code and license are ancillary to this goal.

I won't get into this discussion again. I'll just say that if you think otherwise, whatever good you think you're putting out into the world, is not much better than keeping the software proprietary.

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, stop with this slave mentality please. You can make invoices without funding any company and without the tax office getting in your hair. It's not illegal to charge for your services and never has been. You can declare that income just fine, or skip it. The tax office won't bother you.

This isn’t true. The tax office will bother you, the client also will demand you have an actual company with liability insurance and more. There is a tremendous amount of legal and paperwork once you start accepting money and working with corps. It’s a nightmare.

What exactly did the "bothering" consist of?

Re: What they don't tell you about maintaining an open source project

#130
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. If I throw something up somewhere, you get a tarball, a README, and no way to get in touch with me. If the code helps you, fantastic! If it doesn't, then I hope you at least got something out of the experience. But "as-is" means what it says on the tin. I'm not sure why people are so hellbent on treating every message from every stranger as important.

/sigh Because open source is not just about the code and the license. It is first and foremost about a community of people who want to make software better for everyone, not just for themselves or a select few. The code and license are ancillary to this goal. I won't get into this discussion again. I'll just say that if you think otherwise, whatever good you think you're putting out into the world, is not much better…

You have this entirely backwards. Open source is, definitionally, the code and a license. It is "first and foremost" those things. The community of people cannot exist without the code and the license. The code and the license can and often does exist without dedicated communities.

Everything else in open source is a cultural projection entirely ancillary to the code and the license.

> I'll just say that if you think otherwise, whatever good you think you're putting out into the world, is not much better than keeping the software proprietary.

I have never seen someone so entirely miss the point of open source. This is not a house party, this is not a community support network. There are genuine disagreements about open source philosophy, if it should be more focused on user freedoms or developer convenience, but they are all incompatible with the idea that open-source licensed code in and of itself "is not much better than keeping the software proprietary".

Stallman did not invent the GPL because he wanted an issue tracker and complete documentation from HP. He invented the GPL because he needed to fix his printer drivers.

A ton of very important open source code was thrust into the world, created immense value, but was never further supported or developed by its original developers. Off the top of my head: git, Doom, Bitcoin, and basically everything Fabrice Bellard has ever done.

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