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'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

theguardian.com

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Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#121

Post by card_zero »

dragonwriter wrote: post #115
mytailorisrich wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the employees have the power then decisions that are good for company but bad for the employees won't be made. Let's say that the company can't compete so the CEO proposes to automate production and lay off 50%+ of the employees, do you think employees will vote in favour? In general coops are not good at tough decisions and innovation. Duralex already went bankrupt several times and they are heading for it again.…

> If the employees have the power then decisions that are good for company but bad for the employees won't be made. "The company" is a fiction. Real parties are, e.g., employees, capital owners, suppliers, and customers (and, to the extent that any of those are corporations or similar convenient fictions, the same kinds of groups with respect to those entities.) With a pure labor coop (which an SCOP isn't quite, put…

But returning to that "quite possibly" remark: is it really possible?

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#123

Post by mytailorisrich »

aaplok wrote: post #117
mytailorisrich wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their Wikipedia page says that headcount is flat to increasing over the last 10 years. The coop structure is a result of their bankruptcy in 2024. As I understand, this was the proposal that didn't involve any layoffs and it was chosen by the bankruptcy court. They also got a large de facto subsidy. The fact that they have run out of money again so quickly (the root of the article) is quite worrying to say the least.…

Except that these employees had been put on temporary unemployment (chômage partiel) [0] and their difficulties have been going on for much longer than 10 years. Ultimately all I am saying is that other structures have not fared better than the COOP. Claiming that the potential current failure is because the COOP prevents hard decisions to be made while ignoring the fact that the previous owner lasted 3 years before…

I have never claimed nor suggested that their situation is because they are a coop...

Most of the replies I got here have not even read my comments, apparently, and completely beside the point or just rush to condemn me for blaspheming. It's like the poor guy who dares disagreeing at a student socialist meeting.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#124

Post by aaplok »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #123
aaplok wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that these employees had been put on temporary unemployment (chômage partiel) [0] and their difficulties have been going on for much longer than 10 years. Ultimately all I am saying is that other structures have not fared better than the COOP. Claiming that the potential current failure is because the COOP prevents hard decisions to be made while ignoring the fact that the previous owner lasted 3 years before…

I have never claimed nor suggested that their situation is because they are a coop... Most of the replies I got here have not even read my comments, apparently, and completely beside the point or just rush to condemn me for blaspheming. It's like the poor guy who dares disagreeing at a student socialist meeting.

Here is a quote from your original message which I have read and suspect others have too:

> In general coops are not good at tough decisions and innovation.

> Duralex already went bankrupt several times and they are heading for it again. What's in the article is nice but it's charity not business so unfortunately I am not optimistic.

These two paragraphs following each other do make it seem like you are making a connection between the two, coops being unpropitious for hard decisions and this particular coop heading for bankruptcy.

That original comment was primarily made up of three paragraphs criticising coops, and readers naturally assume that the final concluding paragraph (this place is likely going bankrupt) is linked to the first three.

> just rush to condemn me for blaspheming.

Nobody has accused you of blasphemy. They just disagree with you. You are not being victimised, and nobody has pretended you were not allowed to think as you think. There is just a discussion taking place between disagreeing people.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#125

Post by sigmoid10 »

griffzhowl wrote: post #30
sigmoid10 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason why worker owned companies (which were quite prevalent and a key factor in the 20th century's socialist movements) did not survive in our capitalist world. If we want to see these kinds of companies thrive, we need to change the entire market philosophy. Otherwise they will always be out-competed by companies that favour revenue/profit over worker benefits. In fact they will not even take off in the…

They did survive. There are thousands in Spain and Italy especially. One of the most well-known is the Mondragon Corporation from the Basque country, one of Spain's largest comanies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

Mondragon is often used by people who don't know much about the subject as a counter example, but if you look under the hood, you'll see it doesn't even compare: Less than half the workers own shares and the majority of shares is held by a small circle of executives in the richest branches. That's basically a standard capitalist pig with some socialist lipstick to give pseudo-Marxists an argument in these discussions, when there is none to be had in the first place. In fact Nvidia has a higher percentage of employees owning shares than Mondragon. Would you call that "worker-owned" too?

None of this should be surprising either, because anything that truly benefits workers will be at odds with things that benefit the business. In society there are always people who primarily get paid and people who primarily work. Even the real Marx realized that. If you really want to defeat capitalism, then you have to do more than just play pretend.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#126

Post by Cordiali »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #49
cgearhart wrote: post #39

I have bought a lot of glassware over a couple decades. My usual trick is to look at restaurant supply shops, since they usually have a wide variety to select trade offs in style, price, quality, etc. Somehow I’d never come across Duralex until a few months ago when I was shopping to reorganize my own cupboards. The Duralex stuff I got has been the best glassware I’ve ever had, hands down. I’ll probably order more to…

I've never bought a glass in my life. We just use old Vegemite jars here in Australia.

Jam jars were way more common. As a kid, I might've seen one Vegemite jar for every twenty or so jam jars.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#127

Post by bjourne »

chihuahua wrote: post #3

While there is no shortage of irrelevant details, the article is very light on relevant details. What prevents the factory from staying in business? Not enough orders? The French people supposedly love this glassware and orders pour in whenever the company is mentioned. They have the factory up and running, they have employees. The workers own the means of production, what could be better than that? Why do they need…

We had Duralex glasses in my schools' canteens. Not because they were high-quality but because they were cheap and (back then, at least) they readily shattered. I can buy basically the same quality glasses for 1/3 or 1/4 the price from ikea. Don't think they can compete on price with glasses made in China, Vietnam, Bulgaria or wherever production is cheapest these days.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#129

Post by mytailorisrich »

aaplok wrote: post #124
mytailorisrich wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never claimed nor suggested that their situation is because they are a coop... Most of the replies I got here have not even read my comments, apparently, and completely beside the point or just rush to condemn me for blaspheming. It's like the poor guy who dares disagreeing at a student socialist meeting.

Here is a quote from your original message which I have read and suspect others have too: > In general coops are not good at tough decisions and innovation. > Duralex already went bankrupt several times and they are heading for it again. What's in the article is nice but it's charity not business so unfortunately I am not optimistic. These two paragraphs following each other do make it seem like you are making a conn…

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