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What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

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Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#121

Post by ponector »

satisfice wrote: post #94
NiloCK wrote: post #48

> “Who is going to trust somebody who got a degree in airline engineering who doesn’t know how to think through a problem without a computer telling them the answer?” Years ago when I was working in education (Canadian public schools) our school board had a conference ahead of the school year. The keynote was an inclusive-ed researcher / consultant / speaker who told an anecdote of how they had successfully lobbied f…

Are there degrees in “airline engineering?”

A degree from Ryanair university with major in how to screw your customers while keeping flights fully booked.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#122

Post by general1465 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #118
general1465 wrote: post #82

What if USA would stop treating education like a business - customer paid for degree, customer gets the degree no matter if customer has essential knowledge for the degree?

You're describing a terrible business, where you pay for something worthless. If that's the college business model today, it won't survive for long. Colleges that give you valuable skills for your money should keep doing well though.

I mean is it really terrible? Is customer going to return for more degrees? Unlikely. You just need good marketing on high schools to explain new fools why they should pay you money for getting a degree.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#123

Post by ponector »

NiloCK wrote: post #48

> “Who is going to trust somebody who got a degree in airline engineering who doesn’t know how to think through a problem without a computer telling them the answer?” Years ago when I was working in education (Canadian public schools) our school board had a conference ahead of the school year. The keynote was an inclusive-ed researcher / consultant / speaker who told an anecdote of how they had successfully lobbied f…

Having learned math a lot in university, it is mostly useless knowledge outside of academia. Some basic calculus and logic is useful for sure, but overall, 98% of the math is needed just to be able to learn other math topics later.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#124

Post by vacuity »

nicbou wrote: post #89
NiloCK wrote: post #48

> “Who is going to trust somebody who got a degree in airline engineering who doesn’t know how to think through a problem without a computer telling them the answer?” Years ago when I was working in education (Canadian public schools) our school board had a conference ahead of the school year. The keynote was an inclusive-ed researcher / consultant / speaker who told an anecdote of how they had successfully lobbied f…

To be fair no one ever takes a moment to show you what the math is useful for. You're just expected to learn it because it's said to be important.

Percentages and arithmetic in daily life, programming, financial bookkeeping...to be fair, the math I use often is pretty basic, but even so, the report from UCSD seems to be saying that a significant fraction of the remedial math students can't even perform at that level.

Other math I use rarely, but I'm still glad I learned, say, geometry or calculus when a situation pops up.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#125

Post by vacuity »

in_a_hole wrote: post #113
nohuck13 wrote: post #76

The UCSD report shows some of the questions they asked incoming students. 39% got this right: Round the number 374518 to the nearest 100 34% got this right: Find 13/16 ÷ 2. 2% got this right: If a=-2 and b=-3, evaluate ab² - a/b https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... page 49

To be fair, the ÷ symbol for division must be abolished.

I did fall for it just now, but I think it's typically easier to read when handwritten.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#126

Post by vacuity »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #87
triceratops wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then mom and pop retire, the shop is sold to PE, and they do the same thing as a public company.

Yeah I noticed any time original founders are replaced, companies degrade. The pride of running a good company just isn't there. That's not ALWAYS the case though. I have a relative who bought an AC repair company out, and made it into the amazing company that it is today.

It's not just about pride. Companies, artistic productions, projects of any kind...they require vision and focus. When the people in charge change, maintaining these becomes a challenge.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#127

Post by vacuity »

fortran77 wrote: post #77

Maybe there are too many colleges if there's not enough qualified students. Perhaps save taxpayer money and downsize UCSD. Better have fewer, but qualified, students than load it up with people who shouldn't be there.

Alternatively, maybe some of the rejected students could be admitted. I don't know that any college has an excellent admissions process that reliably identifies talent (or the lack thereof).

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#128

Post by vacuity »

Aurornis wrote: post #104
akramachamarei wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, the study you cite found no significant effect either way for either group. From the last page: "we find that gifted grouping does not help or hurt the achievement growth of gifted students nor does it help or hurt the achievement growth of non-gifted students " (emphasis mine.) This certainly does not imply that separating gifted tracks results in a lot more struggling students.

Thank you! It’s perpetually frustrating that so many have come up with false ideas about gifted programs hurting other student. Allowing advanced students to learn advanced topics should be an easy decision for everyone. It’s so strange that it’s become a contentious topic.

Based on what GP said, it isn't clear that the implementation of "allowing advanced students to learn advanced topics" is successful either. It seems like the current gifted/non-gifted system isn't working.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#129

Post by vacuity »

screye wrote: post #44
Aurornis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war on admissions testing is one of the worst education trends. I couldn’t believe it when it was first proposed, but I was even more shocked when the trend started to spread. It does appear to be reversing a little bit in some places as schools realize they were fooled by people pushing ideology over data and results, but it’s going to take a while. For those who aren’t in the loop: There’s an ideological push t…

It goes deeper. The problem lies at the source. > people pushing ideology University Education programs and as a result teaching bodies have been taken over by ideology. I believe it is in part because all the teaching low hanging fruit has been established for centuries. So the only 'novel' things the programs can do is talk about discrimination, disparate outcomes and hand-wavey ideas about improving education. The…

The sad thing is that I saw that standardized tests were being blamed based on a certain ideology, when the proponents of the ideology should've realized that their own goals are better served by using standardized tests.

It shouldn't be controversial, and in some sense it isn't (in another sense it is, because people confuse themselves), that everyone should be given the opportunity to develop and perform at their full potential. I could name multiple different ideologies that oppose this in some way, though.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#130

Post by vacuity »

fortran77 wrote: post #92
Aurornis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t. The movements pushing these ideas are against the idea of aptitude testing. Many of them are even against the idea of having advanced classes for those who are ahead. It’s not a niche ideology, sadly. It’s going mainstream. A core part of Zohran Mamdani’s platform was his goal to phase out gifted education programs, for example.

Even though he personally benefited from them. Pull up the ladder!

Do you have reason to believe he benefitted from gifted programs around the level of kindergarten or maybe first or second grade?
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